"Sounds daft now but I when we were in the league, I always thought off teams like Cheltenham as non league and certainly not rivals and still do wheras us, Halifax Grimsby Wrexham etc are in my mind proper league clubs. Must be the hot weather effecting the mind"
from the lincoln forum on us
interesting view from the imps
Moderators: Admin, Ralph, asl, Robin
yeah, I still think of Clapham Rovers as a league club
CS85 is right. It takes much longer than 15-odd years to shake off the non-league tag and it works the same in reverse. I still think of Wycombe as a non-league club even though they were promoted to the league over 20 years ago. Yet, the likes of Grimsby and Wrexham would have to languish in the conference for several decades before they shake off their league tag in my eyes. I can remember the likes of Workington, Barrow and Southport in the league, but it took until the turn of the century before I finally perceived them as non-league outfits.
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa
- Posts: 29824
- Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Indeed. All a generational thing I guess.Robin wrote:Oddly enough I am not sure I see Lincoln as a proper league club given their various stints in the park leagues.
Just reading about their history, and they do (or did) hold the record for the most relegations out of the football league - four times.
However, for 24 years from 1987 to 2011 they were in the football league, so all those like me who grew up watching football during that time Lincoln were an established League side - famous of course for their 5 successive play-off failures.
I'm with you there Shade. We're non-league, Lincoln are non-league, Grimsby are non-league. As are Gloucester, Cirencester and Forest Green.Shade wrote:I guess I'm the only one then that sees teams in the non-league as non-league and teams in the league as league. You are what you are, doesn't matter about anything else.
We are deservedly playing in non-league (hopefully for one season) but our infrastructure and fan base is now very much set-up for league two football and I would argue with anyone that we are now playing below our weight at this level, much like Wrexham, Grimsby and probably Lincoln too. Just as though Swansea/Hull etc are playing well above their levels up in the top flight but this is the beauty of football and it would be boring if clubs fortunes never fluctuated!
I would actually go a step further about club perceptions and say that English Football is long overdue a restructure.
There is no doubt that we have gone from a mid 90s provincial club with poor infrastructure and limited ambition, to one with a decent set up where 7 day a week activities can be sustained. I believe this is the case across clubs ranked from about 50-200 in the UK.
I would advocate clubs embedding themselves further into their communities like in Germany. We could be a hub of matchday and non matchday commercial activity and various sporting teams in the region could be affiliated to us like Water Polo, Hockey, Tennis, Cricket etc. Clubs in the UK could then develop combined facilities for all ages groups, genders and sports and help to self fund themselves. A heavy focus would also be put on youth academies, relationships with schools etc. It's the only way football in this country will survive and come anywhere close to aiding the National Team.
I would also argue there is a strong case to have 3 National leagues in the UK of 20 clubs with Regional leagues in the tiers below. The current League Two and National League could be split North and South, with feeder leagues into them. For me, Southend visiting Carlisle for the 50th time in 70 years seems a nonsense. Our football is living in the dark ages, relying on tradition alone to see us through.
Imagine a league where we played Swindon, Hereford, Bristol Rovers, Newport, Kidderminster, Oxford, Plymouth, Exeter, Torquay, Yeovil, Forest Green etc etc. The cups could be national to keep things fresh.
Of course, none of the above will happen anytime soon as Turkey's don't tend to vote for Christmas. Until there is change, fans like us will go on with our penis waving competitions claiming to be bigger than some clubs and smaller than others. In reality, football at this level is slowly dying for all of us. If the structure remains the same for the next decade there will be many more Herefords than Bournemouths that's for sure.
There is no doubt that we have gone from a mid 90s provincial club with poor infrastructure and limited ambition, to one with a decent set up where 7 day a week activities can be sustained. I believe this is the case across clubs ranked from about 50-200 in the UK.
I would advocate clubs embedding themselves further into their communities like in Germany. We could be a hub of matchday and non matchday commercial activity and various sporting teams in the region could be affiliated to us like Water Polo, Hockey, Tennis, Cricket etc. Clubs in the UK could then develop combined facilities for all ages groups, genders and sports and help to self fund themselves. A heavy focus would also be put on youth academies, relationships with schools etc. It's the only way football in this country will survive and come anywhere close to aiding the National Team.
I would also argue there is a strong case to have 3 National leagues in the UK of 20 clubs with Regional leagues in the tiers below. The current League Two and National League could be split North and South, with feeder leagues into them. For me, Southend visiting Carlisle for the 50th time in 70 years seems a nonsense. Our football is living in the dark ages, relying on tradition alone to see us through.
Imagine a league where we played Swindon, Hereford, Bristol Rovers, Newport, Kidderminster, Oxford, Plymouth, Exeter, Torquay, Yeovil, Forest Green etc etc. The cups could be national to keep things fresh.
Of course, none of the above will happen anytime soon as Turkey's don't tend to vote for Christmas. Until there is change, fans like us will go on with our penis waving competitions claiming to be bigger than some clubs and smaller than others. In reality, football at this level is slowly dying for all of us. If the structure remains the same for the next decade there will be many more Herefords than Bournemouths that's for sure.
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London Exile
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
I'm in complete agreement with both Shade and MSB, you are where you are because ultimately results dictate that's where you deserve to be.MSB wrote:I'm with you there Shade. We're non-league, Lincoln are non-league, Grimsby are non-league. As are Gloucester, Cirencester and Forest Green.Shade wrote:I guess I'm the only one then that sees teams in the non-league as non-league and teams in the league as league. You are what you are, doesn't matter about anything else.
The Lincoln fan may feel that his club are a fully fledged league club but the reality is that they are entering their 5th season in the top division of non league football having spent most of that time flirting with the drop zone than the play offs!
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London Exile
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
I definitely agree with you Gavin that there needs to be a restructuring of sorts from L2 down although I'd add some sort of play off structure towards the end of the season where the North and South teams come together.Gavin wrote:I would actually go a step further about club perceptions and say that English Football is long overdue a restructure.
There is no doubt that we have gone from a mid 90s provincial club with poor infrastructure and limited ambition, to one with a decent set up where 7 day a week activities can be sustained. I believe this is the case across clubs ranked from about 50-200 in the UK.
I would advocate clubs embedding themselves further into their communities like in Germany. We could be a hub of matchday and non matchday commercial activity and various sporting teams in the region could be affiliated to us like Water Polo, Hockey, Tennis, Cricket etc. Clubs in the UK could then develop combined facilities for all ages groups, genders and sports and help to self fund themselves. A heavy focus would also be put on youth academies, relationships with schools etc. It's the only way football in this country will survive and come anywhere close to aiding the National Team.
I would also argue there is a strong case to have 3 National leagues in the UK of 20 clubs with Regional leagues in the tiers below. The current League Two and National League could be split North and South, with feeder leagues into them. For me, Southend visiting Carlisle for the 50th time in 70 years seems a nonsense. Our football is living in the dark ages, relying on tradition alone to see us through.
Imagine a league where we played Swindon, Hereford, Bristol Rovers, Newport, Kidderminster, Oxford, Plymouth, Exeter, Torquay, Yeovil, Forest Green etc etc. The cups could be national to keep things fresh.
Of course, none of the above will happen anytime soon as Turkey's don't tend to vote for Christmas. Until there is change, fans like us will go on with our penis waving competitions claiming to be bigger than some clubs and smaller than others. In reality, football at this level is slowly dying for all of us. If the structure remains the same for the next decade there will be many more Herefords than Bournemouths that's for sure.
This isn't just because we've dropped into non league, I've long felt that the conference and even some of the teams at the top of Conference North and South are professional and well structured both on and off the field.
Having teams from the bottom of the country travelling to teams based right up in the north seems a little antiquated now not to mention costly.
It's the same as the lack of a decent reserve team league structure which I also think needs looking at. I think there should be some centralised find to help cover the costs of staging reserve team football to help aid the development of both young players and also those looking to break into the first team. The odd friendly against the same small group of local teams doesn't really help IMO
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa
- Posts: 29824
- Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Interesting idea, and in principle I support it.Gavin wrote:I would actually go a step further about club perceptions and say that English Football is long overdue a restructure.
There is no doubt that we have gone from a mid 90s provincial club with poor infrastructure and limited ambition, to one with a decent set up where 7 day a week activities can be sustained. I believe this is the case across clubs ranked from about 50-200 in the UK.
I would advocate clubs embedding themselves further into their communities like in Germany. We could be a hub of matchday and non matchday commercial activity and various sporting teams in the region could be affiliated to us like Water Polo, Hockey, Tennis, Cricket etc. Clubs in the UK could then develop combined facilities for all ages groups, genders and sports and help to self fund themselves. A heavy focus would also be put on youth academies, relationships with schools etc. It's the only way football in this country will survive and come anywhere close to aiding the National Team.
I would also argue there is a strong case to have 3 National leagues in the UK of 20 clubs with Regional leagues in the tiers below. The current League Two and National League could be split North and South, with feeder leagues into them. For me, Southend visiting Carlisle for the 50th time in 70 years seems a nonsense. Our football is living in the dark ages, relying on tradition alone to see us through.
Imagine a league where we played Swindon, Hereford, Bristol Rovers, Newport, Kidderminster, Oxford, Plymouth, Exeter, Torquay, Yeovil, Forest Green etc etc. The cups could be national to keep things fresh.
Of course, none of the above will happen anytime soon as Turkey's don't tend to vote for Christmas. Until there is change, fans like us will go on with our penis waving competitions claiming to be bigger than some clubs and smaller than others. In reality, football at this level is slowly dying for all of us. If the structure remains the same for the next decade there will be many more Herefords than Bournemouths that's for sure.
The downside of course is a fear that some leagues will be left behind, and some will feel aggrieved their progress is stifled.
Due to history the Northern League is a feed into to the Northern Premier set-up, and promotion is not automatic, meaning teams like Whitley Bay who get 400 fans will struggle to get close to the Conference even though they will have more potential than Northern Premier sides. For example, Spennymoor Town were finally able to go from Northern League to Northern Premier and finished 5th (lost in play-offs) and got to the 4th qualifier of the FA Cup. But it was only after a few years of winning the Northern League they were allowed to go up. This is why the FA Vase is invariably won by Northern League sides - they are a class above other Tier 9 leagues.
You might find that a particular region, say South West has fewer good teams than say the North West. So whereas Chelt and Rovers may always win an easier league, they might always lose in the play-offs to North West side. Meanwhile, second-tier North West sides may be better than Chelt or Rovers but never get the chance to get into the higher leagues and will gradually decline and see fans drift. This might prompt calls for some regions to be placed higher up the pyramid system than others etc, which obviously not be fair.
Granted it's a very basic structure. The old Southern League and Northern Prem were traditionally stronger than the Isthmian League in the early 90s. Clubs like Tiverton and Truro have had strong sides in the last 20 years but decided they were better off staying where they were. Perhaps there could be a play off system among each feeder level, with leagues limited to 18-20 clubs to make for less congestion.
It's unfortunate that there is practically no chance of wholesale change, certainly not from tier 3 downward. The Premier League will continue to undermine the Football League and The FA (hence no international success and limited British youth development). The football league carrot is the Premiership so clubs will always punch above their weight trying to achieve it. This leads to financial meltdown and bankruptcy in a lot of cases.
25 years ago the top of the Non-League pyramid was dominated by the likes of Wycombe (under Martin O'Neill), Kidderminster (under Graham Allner), Kettering and Barnet (under Barry Fry). The likes of Colchester, Enfield, Maidstone and Darlington had excellent individual sides as well. Of these, Maidstone, Enfield, Darlington and Kettering went bang, whilst the others have seen steady progress at best (mostly in the form of Wycombe).
For me, anyone moaning as a Wycombe fan needs their head reading. They are the blueprint for hundreds of clubs at our level or below. If you cannot be Wycombe, we should aim to be secure. I'd rather be a steady non-league club than have no club. Let's face it to be classed as a similar size to Kiddy, Lincoln or a Torquay is no bad thing.
It's unfortunate that there is practically no chance of wholesale change, certainly not from tier 3 downward. The Premier League will continue to undermine the Football League and The FA (hence no international success and limited British youth development). The football league carrot is the Premiership so clubs will always punch above their weight trying to achieve it. This leads to financial meltdown and bankruptcy in a lot of cases.
25 years ago the top of the Non-League pyramid was dominated by the likes of Wycombe (under Martin O'Neill), Kidderminster (under Graham Allner), Kettering and Barnet (under Barry Fry). The likes of Colchester, Enfield, Maidstone and Darlington had excellent individual sides as well. Of these, Maidstone, Enfield, Darlington and Kettering went bang, whilst the others have seen steady progress at best (mostly in the form of Wycombe).
For me, anyone moaning as a Wycombe fan needs their head reading. They are the blueprint for hundreds of clubs at our level or below. If you cannot be Wycombe, we should aim to be secure. I'd rather be a steady non-league club than have no club. Let's face it to be classed as a similar size to Kiddy, Lincoln or a Torquay is no bad thing.
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bigdavejambo
- Posts: 928
- Joined: 27 Nov 2009, 22:46
who even is Lincoln manager thesedays?kags wrote:Their managers only previous experience as a number 1 has been at Lincoln Moorlands Railway
You need to get this right if you are to make sweeping statements - the main reason why clubs do not get promoted from the Northern League to the Northern Premier is failing to apply. Spennymoor Town were formed in 2005, and won the title in 2010, 2011 and 2012 but did not apply for promotion. They did apply in 2013, but Darlington won the title and went up, Spennymoor were champions again in 2014 and took promotion.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: Due to history the Northern League is a feed into to the Northern Premier set-up, and promotion is not automatic, meaning teams like Whitley Bay who get 400 fans will struggle to get close to the Conference even though they will have more potential than Northern Premier sides. For example, Spennymoor Town were finally able to go from Northern League to Northern Premier and finished 5th (lost in play-offs) and got to the 4th qualifier of the FA Cup. But it was only after a few years of winning the Northern League they were allowed to go up. This is why the FA Vase is invariably won by Northern League sides - they are a class above other Tier 9 leagues.
Whitley Bay have been accused by those outside the North of refusing promotion, just so as they can excel in the FA Vase, (promotion means switching to the FA Trophy).
The fact that Northern League teams do not take promotion does make it the pick of the level 9 (in FA Parlance, Step 5, as they do not include the football and premier leagues). Technically it is the equivalent of the Hellenic League, but both in playing strength and facilities the Northern is superior. The Hellenic League promotes a team to the Southern League in most seasons. Still, the Northern League is nowhere near as strong as when I first saw games from it, over 30 years ago. Northern League officials refused the chance to be the fourth Alliance Premier League feeder many years ago, and the league has declined from possibly being the poorest of the four leagues at the sixth level in English Football, to being the best of the 14 leagues at the 9th level.
I'll argue out the restructure of the league and non-League with Gavin when we can share a pint together. I do not wholeheartedly agree with him - as perception as well as logic needs to be taken into account.
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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- Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Thanks for correcting my misinformation Leo.leohoenig wrote:You need to get this right if you are to make sweeping statements - the main reason why clubs do not get promoted from the Northern League to the Northern Premier is failing to apply. Spennymoor Town were formed in 2005, and won the title in 2010, 2011 and 2012 but did not apply for promotion. They did apply in 2013, but Darlington won the title and went up, Spennymoor were champions again in 2014 and took promotion.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: Due to history the Northern League is a feed into to the Northern Premier set-up, and promotion is not automatic, meaning teams like Whitley Bay who get 400 fans will struggle to get close to the Conference even though they will have more potential than Northern Premier sides. For example, Spennymoor Town were finally able to go from Northern League to Northern Premier and finished 5th (lost in play-offs) and got to the 4th qualifier of the FA Cup. But it was only after a few years of winning the Northern League they were allowed to go up. This is why the FA Vase is invariably won by Northern League sides - they are a class above other Tier 9 leagues.
Whitley Bay have been accused by those outside the North of refusing promotion, just so as they can excel in the FA Vase, (promotion means switching to the FA Trophy).
The fact that Northern League teams do not take promotion does make it the pick of the level 9 (in FA Parlance, Step 5, as they do not include the football and premier leagues). Technically it is the equivalent of the Hellenic League, but both in playing strength and facilities the Northern is superior. The Hellenic League promotes a team to the Southern League in most seasons. Still, the Northern League is nowhere near as strong as when I first saw games from it, over 30 years ago. Northern League officials refused the chance to be the fourth Alliance Premier League feeder many years ago, and the league has declined from possibly being the poorest of the four leagues at the sixth level in English Football, to being the best of the 14 leagues at the 9th level.
I'll argue out the restructure of the league and non-League with Gavin when we can share a pint together. I do not wholeheartedly agree with him - as perception as well as logic needs to be taken into account.
Yes, the decision not to be a feeder league to the conference decades ago was because they thought they were too good for it. Alas, the days of West Auckland winning the World Cup and a Crook Town player being the man who made Barcelona what they are today were already long gone by then.