New club for Mr Cooper
https://twitter.com/AshLoveridge10/stat ... 03270?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FGR
Moderators: Admin, Ralph, asl, Robin
Technically it is as he’s the overall shareholder at the top of all the web of companies in the group.Ten Bobsworth wrote:Ecotricity isn't Vince's cash either, is it? Not that you'd know it if you simply followed all the media hype.ctfc-fan wrote:Considering the club is owned by Ecotricity it’s not technically Vince’s cash.
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Shame. I like Barrow and was hoping they would kick on and establish themselves. That’s one relegation spot filled.paperboy wrote:New club for Mr Cooper
https://twitter.com/AshLoveridge10/stat ... 03270?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Have you read Ecotricity's most recent Annual Report? £90million owed to HSBC, £47million owed to Ecobond holders and now another £15million borrowed in COVID loans and hoping to get another £25million.ctfc-fan wrote:Technically it is as he’s the overall shareholder at the top of all the web of companies in the group.Ten Bobsworth wrote:Ecotricity isn't Vince's cash either, is it? Not that you'd know it if you simply followed all the media hype.ctfc-fan wrote:Considering the club is owned by Ecotricity it’s not technically Vince’s cash.
How much of his own money has Vince invested in Ecotricity? All of £2 or to be more exact £1.80 because Ecotricity paid him £7million for 20p of those shares in 2015.
Has FGR been funded out of profits? No. Its funded out of Ecotricity borrowings.
You'll find it all here if you care to take a close look:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FGR hasn't filed its 2020 accounts but you can see how much FGR has cost Ecotricity to 2019 here:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Not sure what your agenda is Ten Bob, but more than 75% of Ecotricity Group Ltd (your link) are owned by Green Britain Group Limited who are the only person of significant control. Looking at Green Britain Group Dale Vince has more than 75% of shares and is the only person of significant control (Kate Vince is the only other director).
Green Britain Group also own more than 75% of FGR, and are the only person of significant control.
That’s why people use Vince/Ecotricity interchangeably. I do not think anyone thought it was DV’s personal money or even that it came from Ecotricity profit. But is DV who decides how much money Ecotricity are going to spend on FGR. Whether that money comes up from Ecotricity to Green Britain Group and back down to FGR, or straight across, it doesn’t matter. Remember also that Green Britain Group/DV will also own other companies.
Green Britain Group also own more than 75% of FGR, and are the only person of significant control.
That’s why people use Vince/Ecotricity interchangeably. I do not think anyone thought it was DV’s personal money or even that it came from Ecotricity profit. But is DV who decides how much money Ecotricity are going to spend on FGR. Whether that money comes up from Ecotricity to Green Britain Group and back down to FGR, or straight across, it doesn’t matter. Remember also that Green Britain Group/DV will also own other companies.
RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
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Indeed. I didn’t think that was new or a surprise to anyone.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
New Head Coach just appointed.
https://www.fgr.co.uk/news/rob-edwards- ... head-coach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.fgr.co.uk/news/rob-edwards- ... head-coach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Was just going to comment myself that they actually use their 1 star and two greyed out stars on their website in between paragraphs What a lovely permanent reminder of how easy it isn't to get out of League 2.andgarod wrote:I didnt see how long the contract was but the showed the 3 stars one black and 2 grey
If they were to win the playoffs would they ........
I just remembered they are not going to wembley
- Hubert Parry
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Of my limited knowledge of Rob Edwards, I think this could be a very shrewd appointment. It would not surprise me to see him do very well indeed. Good luck to him, I say. I'd much rather see the lower leagues appoint coaches with new ideas rather than some has been.
I don't think it's fair to say that FGR have not been good at developing players either. In fact, I'd say they've been exceptional for this level. They have spotted talent, signed them cheaply and then sold them to clubs for a huge profit. It's moneyball. They are very data driven.
I don't think it's fair to say that FGR have not been good at developing players either. In fact, I'd say they've been exceptional for this level. They have spotted talent, signed them cheaply and then sold them to clubs for a huge profit. It's moneyball. They are very data driven.
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If it helps, HSBC have a charge over shares agreed with Green Britain Group.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... 50c13ccac7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Lets just say that I have had a personal interest in football for nearly seven decades and a professional interest in business finance for well over half a century. FGR is interesting in quite a lot of ways. I'm aware of misconceptions but am also interested in other peoples insights or knowledge.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:Not sure what your agenda is Ten Bob, but more than 75% of Ecotricity Group Ltd (your link) are owned by Green Britain Group Limited who are the only person of significant control. Looking at Green Britain Group Dale Vince has more than 75% of shares and is the only person of significant control (Kate Vince is the only other director).
Green Britain Group also own more than 75% of FGR, and are the only person of significant control.
That’s why people use Vince/Ecotricity interchangeably. I do not think anyone thought it was DV’s personal money or even that it came from Ecotricity profit. But is DV who decides how much money Ecotricity are going to spend on FGR. Whether that money comes up from Ecotricity to Green Britain Group and back down to FGR, or straight across, it doesn’t matter. Remember also that Green Britain Group/DV will also own other companies.
I'll come back to you later on how Vince's shares in the Ecotricity Group became shares in the Green Britain Group. Its curious on its own but interesting also that it seems to have gone unnoticed by a media that is regularly courted by Dale Vince and his entourage, as, it seems, is the Group's more recent reliance on COVID finance.
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If you get round to taking another look, ctfc-fan, may I suggest you take a look at the directors loan transactions in 'Egotricity', the continued losses, the accounts that were plainly wrong (see the notes in the 2017 accounts), the numbers of FDs that have come and gone, who signed off the accounts up to 2013 and who has been signing them off since.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
Its not everyone's cup of tea but following the money can, at times, be more interesting than following the footie. Have fun.
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Not sure it is much different to most businesses to be honest. My take is that shady accounting by a business creating renewable energy is more tolerable than that by companies causing harm to the environment or physical and mental health. Doesn’t mean it is right, just more tolerable.Ten Bobsworth wrote:If you get round to taking another look, ctfc-fan, may I suggest you take a look at the directors loan transactions in 'Egotricity', the continued losses, the accounts that were plainly wrong (see the notes in the 2017 accounts), the numbers of FDs that have come and gone, who signed off the accounts up to 2013 and who has been signing them off since.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
Its not everyone's cup of tea but following the money can, at times, be more interesting than following the footie. Have fun.
Also worth noting that other companies in the group have been attracting investment from other companies. For example, Gridserve (who I know for professional reasons) have taken a 25% of Electric Highway.
https://www.retailtimes.co.uk/electric- ... -services/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Esp when it concerns FGR. The losses that they have been making year over year are incredible. There is obviously something going on there. Carry on TB, enjoying your posts.Ten Bobsworth wrote:If you get round to taking another look, ctfc-fan, may I suggest you take a look at the directors loan transactions in 'Egotricity', the continued losses, the accounts that were plainly wrong (see the notes in the 2017 accounts), the numbers of FDs that have come and gone, who signed off the accounts up to 2013 and who has been signing them off since.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
Its not everyone's cup of tea but following the money can, at times, be more interesting than following the footie. Have fun.
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Do you mean FGR losses, Egotricity losses or both?Ralph wrote:Esp when it concerns FGR. The losses that they have been making year over year are incredible. There is obviously something going on there. Carry on TB, enjoying your posts.Ten Bobsworth wrote:If you get round to taking another look, ctfc-fan, may I suggest you take a look at the directors loan transactions in 'Egotricity', the continued losses, the accounts that were plainly wrong (see the notes in the 2017 accounts), the numbers of FDs that have come and gone, who signed off the accounts up to 2013 and who has been signing them off since.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
Its not everyone's cup of tea but following the money can, at times, be more interesting than following the footie. Have fun.
Any ideas on what Talksport's favourite EFL chairman has been spending the interest-free loans on? Seems like a helluva lot for someone who says he's not interested in money or possessions.
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You don't mean to infer that it is common practice for energy companies to 'over-estimate', in their balance sheets, the amounts owed by customers to the same extent as Ecotricity seem to have been doing pre-2017, do you?RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:Not sure it is much different to most businesses to be honest. My take is that shady accounting by a business creating renewable energy is more tolerable than that by companies causing harm to the environment or physical and mental health. Doesn’t mean it is right, just more tolerable.Ten Bobsworth wrote:If you get round to taking another look, ctfc-fan, may I suggest you take a look at the directors loan transactions in 'Egotricity', the continued losses, the accounts that were plainly wrong (see the notes in the 2017 accounts), the numbers of FDs that have come and gone, who signed off the accounts up to 2013 and who has been signing them off since.ctfc-fan wrote:RCS you get what I’m saying but I also now see what TB is saying in that Egotricity have a lot of borrowing, as do most of these ‘big’ companies. I’ll take another look but as there are so many companies in the group it’s difficult to see which one has the loans.
Its not everyone's cup of tea but following the money can, at times, be more interesting than following the footie. Have fun.
Also worth noting that other companies in the group have been attracting investment from other companies. For example, Gridserve (who I know for professional reasons) have taken a 25% of Electric Highway.
https://www.retailtimes.co.uk/electric- ... -services/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
i.e. more than enough to wipe out all the declared profits between 2011 and 2016.
Any thoughts on why it took five and a half years to register the purchase of own shares (20 one pence shares for £7million) in 2015?
The remaining 180 one pence shares appear to have been swopped for 18,000 x £1 shares in Green Britain Group Ltd last October. £18,000 isn't a lot, is it, but is that all there was to it? And where did that money come from? According to this article, published in the Evening Standard in 2015, Dale was struggling to make ends meet on his £120K salary.
https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/lo ... 84297.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Big business in dodgy accounting shocker. This is literally par for the course. I am not inferring anything. I am curious why you are a) picking out Ecotricity and b) acting as if no one on here knew that is the type of thing all big businesses (in all sectors) in the UK get up.
As for energy companies specifically, just look into how they separate the different parts of the value chain they control and the transfer pricing they employ. A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
At least DV put his own time and energy in founding the company. Most big company heads in who make a mint from creative accounting didn’t. That’s why we have such a huge tax consultancy industry after all.
Not sure what point you are trying to make.
As for energy companies specifically, just look into how they separate the different parts of the value chain they control and the transfer pricing they employ. A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
At least DV put his own time and energy in founding the company. Most big company heads in who make a mint from creative accounting didn’t. That’s why we have such a huge tax consultancy industry after all.
Not sure what point you are trying to make.
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Fair enough, will do. Be interesting to hear if anything really surprising, or even criminal, is uncovered.ctfc-fan wrote:Leave him be RCS, I want to hear more....!
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I'd like to hear more too.ctfc-fan wrote:Leave him be RCS, I want to hear more....!
I would like to know where all the money Vince has taken out of Ecotricity has ended up and how much tax the socially conscious Lord Rodborough has actually paid on it.
I'd like to know how much COVID money has been spent on propping up loss-making Ecotricity and FGR and why.
And I'd like to know why the media's turning a blind eye whilst celebrating Dale Vince as some sort of visionary and paragon of virtue.
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Here he is in 2015 using the classic ‘I pay all the tax I legally need to” defence about dodgy accounting. https://www.channel4.com/news/dale-vinc ... -tax-video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Ten Bobsworth wrote:I'd like to hear more too.ctfc-fan wrote:Leave him be RCS, I want to hear more....!
I would like to know where all the money Vince has taken out of Ecotricity has ended up and how much tax the socially conscious Lord Rodborough has actually paid on it.
I'd like to know how much COVID money has been spent on propping up loss-making Ecotricity and FGR and why.
And I'd like to know why the media's turning a blind eye whilst celebrating Dale Vince as some sort of visionary and paragon of virtue.
I wonder how much he ploughed in to the Sky Diamonds business?
As for the media...I assume he is paying the Daily Express a tidy sum to run their campaign which he backs, and you can see the number of full page ads Ecotricity take out in the print editions.
Ultimately, the media are majority owned by tax avoiders, billionaires and chums of Boris et al so a) they don’t care about dodgy accounting because they and their friends do it themselves and b) a meritocracy story of a self-made man who became a millionaire by doing things their own way is exactly the narrative they want to push as opposed to the cronyism and privilege which dominates big business/media/politics.
Isn't that how Starbucks minimised profits so they didn't have to pay so much tax? They owned the coffee bean suppliers, based in a low-tax country that sold to their retail arm that traded across Europe - and priced it so high that the retail business were making some ridiculously low margin on every sale.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
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Yup. Standard practice in most big businesses who are able to do it.asl wrote:Isn't that how Starbucks minimised profits so they didn't have to pay so much tax? They owned the coffee bean suppliers, based in a low-tax country that sold to their retail arm that traded across Europe - and priced it so high that the retail business were making some ridiculously low margin on every sale.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
Football finance is revelant to all football fans.Si Robin wrote:It's all well and good carrying on, but may I ask what it has to do with Cheltenham Town or League 1?
As the table at the top of the page shows league 2, it is additionly relevant as they are in the same league.
Once that changes to League 1 then discussions about FGR finances would be in Other Football.
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That's correct. Starbucks uses a Swiss based company to minimise worldwide tax. Its an international issue more than a solely UK one.asl wrote:Isn't that how Starbucks minimised profits so they didn't have to pay so much tax? They owned the coffee bean suppliers, based in a low-tax country that sold to their retail arm that traded across Europe - and priced it so high that the retail business were making some ridiculously low margin on every sale.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
The circumstances that resulted in Ecotricity discovering errors in previous accounts are explained in the company's 2017 Annual Report and Accounts that are available to see here (see Page 1):
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It therefore seems unlikely that the Ecotricity Group was actually making profits in any of the years between 2011 and 2016 when profits were reported.
If we assume that the reported results are otherwise correct, I estimate that the Ecotricity Group has aggregate losses of £27.6milion over the last ten years.
The figures will include the losses of FGR which amounted to £13.8million in the nine years to 2019. FGR's 2020 financial results have not yet been published.
Salford City also haven't reported for 2020 but their 2019 accounts showed losses for the year of £3.3million.
The Innocent Stadium seems to be emblazoned with slogans, one of which is 'Sustainability in Sport'.
The trustees and activities of the 'Sustainability in Sport Foundation' can be found here:
https://register-of-charities.charityco ... 2/trustees" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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I didn’t know Gary Neville was a trustee of Sustainability in Sport - I always assumed it was just another sole venture/tax write off for Vince.Ten Bobsworth wrote:That's correct. Starbucks uses a Swiss based company to minimise worldwide tax. Its an international issue more than a solely UK one.asl wrote:Isn't that how Starbucks minimised profits so they didn't have to pay so much tax? They owned the coffee bean suppliers, based in a low-tax country that sold to their retail arm that traded across Europe - and priced it so high that the retail business were making some ridiculously low margin on every sale.RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:A big energy company needs to tweak the accounts? Simply increase the cost of energy one part of the business buys from the other.
The circumstances that resulted in Ecotricity discovering errors in previous accounts are explained in the company's 2017 Annual Report and Accounts that are available to see here (see Page 1):
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It therefore seems unlikely that the Ecotricity Group was actually making profits in any of the years between 2011 and 2016 when profits were reported.
If we assume that the reported results are otherwise correct, I estimate that the Ecotricity Group has aggregate losses of £27.6milion over the last ten years.
The figures will include the losses of FGR which amounted to £13.8million in the nine years to 2019. FGR's 2020 financial results have not yet been published.
Salford City also haven't reported for 2020 but their 2019 accounts showed losses for the year of £3.3million.
The Innocent Stadium seems to be emblazoned with slogans, one of which is 'Sustainability in Sport'.
The trustees and activities of the 'Sustainability in Sport Foundation' can be found here:
https://register-of-charities.charityco ... 2/trustees" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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I didn’t know Gary Neville was a trustee of Sustainability in Sport - I always assumed it was just another sole venture/tax write off for Vince.[/quote]
When you are losing that amount of money, you don't really need tax write offs, do you, but have you managed to figure out what Sustainability in Sport actually does?
Rishi Sunak has reduced the lifetime amount of Entrepreneurs Relief from £10million to £1million. Entrepreneurs Relief allows individuals to get away with paying 10% CGT rather than income tax and national insurance on income, profits or gains.
The Ecotricity Group paid Dale Vince £3million for the 'Ecotricity brand' and £7million for 20 one pence shares. Do you think that might just be coincidence?
When you are losing that amount of money, you don't really need tax write offs, do you, but have you managed to figure out what Sustainability in Sport actually does?
Rishi Sunak has reduced the lifetime amount of Entrepreneurs Relief from £10million to £1million. Entrepreneurs Relief allows individuals to get away with paying 10% CGT rather than income tax and national insurance on income, profits or gains.
The Ecotricity Group paid Dale Vince £3million for the 'Ecotricity brand' and £7million for 20 one pence shares. Do you think that might just be coincidence?
So is the general point being made here that we're owned by a dodgy b#!#%#d?
Seriously though, there does seem to be a pretty high turnover of directors at the company. A number of terminations/appointments in their recent filing history. Is that unusual?
Seriously though, there does seem to be a pretty high turnover of directors at the company. A number of terminations/appointments in their recent filing history. Is that unusual?