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 Post subject: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 18 Sep 2021, 05:30 
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Going into administration and facing a 12 point deduction.

It doesn’t soften the pill for Wycombe or Rotherham who suffered from Derby’s other cheating but at least this should mean they are in L1 and coming to WR next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58604851


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 18 Sep 2021, 10:58 
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"wages effectively trebled from £16m in 2014 to £47m by 2018"

That is crazy and its probably a lot higher again now


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 18 Sep 2021, 11:47 
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I wonder what they’re paying Rooney, for all the good it’s done them.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 18 Sep 2021, 12:45 
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Ralph wrote:
"wages effectively trebled from £16m in 2014 to £47m by 2018"

That is crazy and its probably a lot higher again now


The problem is that business and logic just doesn't work in football. The tools that you use to turn a business around cannot be applied when it comes to running a football club.

There are so many variables that you can't control in the game. Throwing money is often the solution used by many as it works in most businesses but in football more often than not, it fails because it is unsustainable.

I suspect this will happen to Wrexham.

There is much jealousy in the football world of the riches that appear to be there at the higher echelons of the game. So it leads to things like ideas such as World Cup every two years, expansion of European Competitions (to a slice of the money), buying of over-priced average players (e.g Joelinton at Newcastle, £40M) and European Super League (to protect what you have).

How do you solve it? Maybe any club that loses money in any season should be deducted points.

In essence they have cheated to achieve what they have done and so it would ensure that they live within their means.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 18 Sep 2021, 19:47 
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Red Duke wrote:
Ralph wrote:
"wages effectively trebled from £16m in 2014 to £47m by 2018"

That is crazy and its probably a lot higher again now


The problem is that business and logic just doesn't work in football. The tools that you use to turn a business around cannot be applied when it comes to running a football club.

There are so many variables that you can't control in the game. Throwing money is often the solution used by many as it works in most businesses but in football more often than not, it fails because it is unsustainable.

I suspect this will happen to Wrexham.

There is much jealousy in the football world of the riches that appear to be there at the higher echelons of the game. So it leads to things like ideas such as World Cup every two years, expansion of European Competitions (to a slice of the money), buying of over-priced average players (e.g Joelinton at Newcastle, £40M) and European Super League (to protect what you have).

How do you solve it? Maybe any club that loses money in any season should be deducted points.

In essence they have cheated to achieve what they have done and so it would ensure that they live within their means.


Just make FFP more strict and narrow and enforce it. Make the wage bill limit linked only two ticket revenue to avoid dodgy stadium sales and falsely inflated sponsorship deals. If clubs make surplus from cup runs or player sales they will have to invest in club infrastructure or academy, or build up savings rather than spending on wages.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 00:37 
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I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 06:10 
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Ralph wrote:
I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.
Think you’re talking about Stoke with Denise.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 06:12 
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Ralph wrote:
I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.


It is Stoke is owned by the Bet365 group/family.

Derby is owned by Melvyn Morris who made his money by starting up/investing in start up digital companies and selling them for hundreds of millions.

I do not know what his current companies are so whether he is actively accumulating millions or just burning through his resources I don’t know. But he has been trying to sell the club for two years.

In any case, the point of FFP rules is that clubs have to rely more on their own income than being a bailed out by an owner.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 07:18 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ralph wrote:
I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.


It is Stoke is owned by the Bet365 group/family.


As I said above [WINKING FACE]


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 07:44 
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ctfc-fan wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ralph wrote:
I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.


It is Stoke is owned by the Bet365 group/family.


As I said above [WINKING FACE]


Yes, which I only saw after writing mine as you posted it whilst I was writing.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 19 Sep 2021, 10:37 
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ctfc-fan wrote:
Ralph wrote:
I don't get how they are in as much financial trouble as they are. The guy that owns them started Bet365 right? His daughter is one of the richest women in the UK running that company now. FFP obviously has something to do with it. I'm a little out of touch with it all to be fair. IIRC, Derby met Villa in the play off final, Villa went up, Derby got screwed up.
Think you’re talking about Stoke with Denise.

Yeah my mistake.. It was Stoke


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 20 Sep 2021, 19:18 
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same old same old, this was going to end one way and one way only.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 06:15 
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“The Athletic has been speaking to people with knowledge of the club’s financial position and they have not been very upbeat.

“It’s 50/50 they get liquidated,” said one source, while another said: “I can’t see how they get out of this — they’re f#!$.”

The picture they painted in such depressing tones was one of a club that is worth less than nothing. Much less.

They said any prospective buyer would need to shell out more than £50 million simply clearing Derby’s debts before spending a penny on rebuilding the club and putting a competitive team on the park.

This is because the club has football creditors, who must be paid up to £10 million in full, as well as secured debt of £20 million owed to an American private equity firm and a tax bill of almost £30 million
.”

https://theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09 ... ed_article


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 06:24 
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Again this argument of why ‘football creditors’ take priority over others including HMRC. No other business can do this unless they are a secured debt.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 06:35 
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ctfc-fan wrote:
Again this argument of why ‘football creditors’ take priority over others including HMRC. No other business can do this unless they are a secured debt.


Times are a changing. Following paragraphs to what I pasted before are:

Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound.

HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs
.”

Pleasingly, FFP rules do seem to have done for Derby:

The club’s annual wage bill had been allowed to climb to £47.8 million for 2017-18, according to the last set of accounts filed at Companies House. That equated to 161 per cent of the club’s turnover.

Morris looked for ways to stay on the right side of the EFL’s ceiling for permitted losses, £39 million over three years. Costs were hived off into new subsidiaries, giving Derby a tangled corporate structure, and then, two days before the end of the accounting period for the 2017-18 season, he sold Pride Park to another new company he controlled for £81 million
.”

It is those dodgy shenanigans that have accelerated the downfall. This could have been avoided if they had kept total wages below turnover….not a hard concept really.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 08:45 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:
Again this argument of why ‘football creditors’ take priority over others including HMRC. No other business can do this unless they are a secured debt.


Times are a changing. Following paragraphs to what I pasted before are:

Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound.

HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs
.”

Pleasingly, FFP rules do seem to have done for Derby:

The club’s annual wage bill had been allowed to climb to £47.8 million for 2017-18, according to the last set of accounts filed at Companies House. That equated to 161 per cent of the club’s turnover.

Morris looked for ways to stay on the right side of the EFL’s ceiling for permitted losses, £39 million over three years. Costs were hived off into new subsidiaries, giving Derby a tangled corporate structure, and then, two days before the end of the accounting period for the 2017-18 season, he sold Pride Park to another new company he controlled for £81 million
.”

It is those dodgy shenanigans that have accelerated the downfall. This could have been avoided if they had kept total wages below turnover….not a hard concept really.


BUT YOU MUST BE IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE, THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE!!!!

Thing is now there will be some ULTRA SPIVS lurking around derby now, apart from the obvious derby will be at the mercy of some very very suspect individuals / groups for some time to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 09:18 
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longmover wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:
Again this argument of why ‘football creditors’ take priority over others including HMRC. No other business can do this unless they are a secured debt.


Times are a changing. Following paragraphs to what I pasted before are:

Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound.

HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs
.”

Pleasingly, FFP rules do seem to have done for Derby:

The club’s annual wage bill had been allowed to climb to £47.8 million for 2017-18, according to the last set of accounts filed at Companies House. That equated to 161 per cent of the club’s turnover.

Morris looked for ways to stay on the right side of the EFL’s ceiling for permitted losses, £39 million over three years. Costs were hived off into new subsidiaries, giving Derby a tangled corporate structure, and then, two days before the end of the accounting period for the 2017-18 season, he sold Pride Park to another new company he controlled for £81 million
.”

It is those dodgy shenanigans that have accelerated the downfall. This could have been avoided if they had kept total wages below turnover….not a hard concept really.


BUT YOU MUST BE IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE, THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE!!!!

Thing is now there will be some ULTRA SPIVS lurking around derby now, apart from the obvious derby will be at the mercy of some very very suspect individuals / groups for some time to come.


True. A stadium and facilities like Pride Park will be like a light to the moth for ‘ultra spivs’ as you call them. Plenty more carpet to be bagged and doubtless the EFL will say it is all ‘fit and proper’ until too late.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 23 Sep 2021, 07:12 
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Fleetwood Town owner Andy Pilley in court to face fraud and money laundering charges, Fleetwood have made over £20m in losses.

evidently Pilley was a bit 'light handed' when he worked for the post office :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 23 Sep 2021, 07:17 
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longmover wrote:
Fleetwood Town owner Andy Pilley in court to face fraud and money laundering charges, Fleetwood have made over £20m in losses.


Predicted by everyone ten years ago.

Did anyone (apart from the authorities and myopic fans) think there was any possibility Pilley and Fleetwood were legit?

I know Fleetwood is unrelated but thinking about Derby one benefit of Covid could be that the surface of the swamp has been lowered revealing more of the crooks and spivs lurking within. If the pandemic drains the swamp further and sends a few more clubs into administration and sees a few owners and directors struck off or banned from football then that’s a good thing imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Derby - cheats never prosper
 Post Posted: 23 Sep 2021, 07:54 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
longmover wrote:
Fleetwood Town owner Andy Pilley in court to face fraud and money laundering charges, Fleetwood have made over £20m in losses.


Predicted by everyone ten years ago.

Did anyone (apart from the authorities and myopic fans) think there was any possibility Pilley and Fleetwood were legit?

I know Fleetwood is unrelated but thinking about Derby one benefit of Covid could be that the surface of the swamp has been lowered revealing more of the crooks and spivs lurking within. If the pandemic drains the swamp further and sends a few more clubs into administration and sees a few owners and directors struck off or banned from football then that’s a good thing imo.


Thing is there's plenty more to replace them and if the authorities don't catch up with you for 6 - 10 years then think of all that money that can be laundered in that time


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