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 Post subject: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 11:21 
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....until May gets the chop?

Surely just a matter of days/weeks now with seemingly no chance of her getting her Brexit deal through Parliament.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 11:23 
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Leadership contest will start on Monday.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 15:28 
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Worst PM in my memory - and I'm a Conservative voter. In mitigation, she was sold a pup and her tenure will be solely judged on her ability to deliver the undeliverable.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 17:48 
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I really don't know what people expect. I can't see anybody doing a better job. Well and truly stuck between a rock and a hard place, whilst everybody calls you a twat.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 19:27 
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Shade wrote:
I really don't know what people expect. I can't see anybody doing a better job. Well and truly stuck between a rock and a hard place, whilst everybody calls you a twat.

enough about RCS lol
Tomorrow I reckon, wish I played poker against her


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 19:57 
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EU bullies have got MAY around their little finger, EU like always bully and act in an aggressive manner when they don't get the result they wish. MAY have stabbed the 17.4M in the back. What is the point of a democratic vote when its devalued and becomes meaningless. I will not vote again, whats the point, votes mean nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 20:22 
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Malabus wrote:
EU bullies have got MAY around their little finger, EU like always bully and act in an aggressive manner when they don't get the result they wish. MAY have stabbed the 17.4M in the back. What is the point of a democratic vote when its devalued and becomes meaningless. I will not vote again, whats the point, votes mean nothing.


To be fair, the only thing you voted on was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

The vote didn't specify what version of Brexit you were voting on should that side of the vote win. Which is exactly why we need a 2nd referendum now that the deal is known and we would now know exactly what we'd be voting for should one happen.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 20:24 
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We knew leave meant leave and that includes leaving the customs union.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 23:38 
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Malabus wrote:
We knew leave meant leave and that includes leaving the customs union.


What about the Single Market?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 23:49 
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https://youtu.be/Vn2hSVfqtYc


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 00:12 
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Malabus wrote:
https://youtu.be/Vn2hSVfqtYc


So you are saying that “Project Fear” was accurate all along?


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 08:33 
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The question I am shocked and surprised that NOBODY is asking is this.

If we take it that the backstop fails in NI and we see NI on its own remain in the customs union and single market (as stupid as that may be). And this was all done in order to prevent a hard border and nothing else can be found that will work.
Then that leaves NI as GB's border with the EU. So why is it Brussels says that any checks between NI and GB can be very light touch and non intrusive.
Thant being the case, how come it is then impossible to move that border 50 miles down the road from Belfast and also make that border light touch and non intrusive??
You would almost think they were playing a game with the Goof Friday Agreement and using it as an excuse to batter the UK. They also seem to forget the GFA is a two way street, yet they seem happy to introduce legislation that 'weakens' NI link with the UK, due to fear it may 'weaken' links with RoI.

Mrs May has fallen for some 5hit these last couple of years, but the hard / soft border issue is the biggest pile of it. As, it has been explained by EU and Mrs May that it is perfectly simple to have an invisible one between NI and UK.


As Mark Twain said, if they thought giving you a vote would actually make any difference, they wouldn't have given you one


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 09:42 
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Ihearye wrote:
The question I am shocked and surprised that NOBODY is asking is this.

If we take it that the backstop fails in NI and we see NI on its own remain in the customs union and single market (as stupid as that may be). And this was all done in order to prevent a hard border and nothing else can be found that will work.
Then that leaves NI as GB's border with the EU. So why is it Brussels says that any checks between NI and GB can be very light touch and non intrusive.
Thant being the case, how come it is then impossible to move that border 50 miles down the road from Belfast and also make that border light touch and non intrusive??
You would almost think they were playing a game with the Goof Friday Agreement and using it as an excuse to batter the UK. They also seem to forget the GFA is a two way street, yet they seem happy to introduce legislation that 'weakens' NI link with the UK, due to fear it may 'weaken' links with RoI.

Mrs May has fallen for some 5hit these last couple of years, but the hard / soft border issue is the biggest pile of it. As, it has been explained by EU and Mrs May that it is perfectly simple to have an invisible one between NI and UK.


As Mark Twain said, if they thought giving you a vote would actually make any difference, they wouldn't have given you one


Passport checks at Stranraer or Holyhead may not be much less intrusive than a land border of the I of I, but visually and symbolically it is much different.

The facts are NI voted 55.8% remain, Unionist parties had a lower share of the popular vote in the last general election then Nationalists/Separatists, and is 3% of the population.

I personally think it is admirable that our Government and the EU have have gone to a lot of effort and staked a lot of the deal to help that 3%.

As much as Brextremist Arlene may be happy to put up a fence and tell Ulster’s border communities they can no longer shop, work or socialise south of the watch towers, like you state for the GFA, Brexit is about compromise and works both ways, and finding a solution which works for NI’s communities and economy and, more importantly for the rest of the U.K as well.

The backstop is not meant to ever be used, so if annoying the 0.9% of the electorate who voted DUP by putting in that backstop is the only way to reach an agreement which is the best outcome for the whole country then so be it.

The flip side of course is if NI does ever find itself in a customs union on its own, ScotNats and the GLA will want the same for Scotland and London. That is too reductionist - those bodies have to accept that there are specific reasons for the NI position.

On an aside, if the DUP are so in favour of the Union and being part of the UK, any chance they’ll ever bother to adopt the national rule of law re: abortion and marriage? Or is it a case of picking and choosing and wanting it both ways?

But one thing you and I do agree on - this deal is a load of rubbish, won’t work and won’t pass through Parliament.

It’s been clear the momentum in Parliament is for a People’s Vote, with No Deal, Bad Deal and Remain on the ballot, and for a few weeks it’s been equally clear that both No Deal and Remain are more likely than whatever deal was contrived.

I fully believe May just wanted this bit over with, presenting a poor deal knowing full well it will fail, just to get to the end game of another vote sooner rather than later.

When it happens, it will be interesting to see if they use two rounds and second preference voting. Ie, if neither Remain or No Deal get over 50% in round one (say both on 45%), then all the second choices of Bad Deal voters get added to the tally in R2.

I would also be more strict on the mechanics and legislate for a) a minimum turnout and b) a majority by at leat 10 percentage points to make the vote valid. If it fails, then no more chances and it goes back to Parliament to choose No Deal or Bad Deal to fulfill the advice of the 2016 poll.


Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 15 Nov 2018, 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 09:53 
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And there was me thinking it was. UK referendum or do you intend to break down the UK electoral area by electoral area and give them special status. Your mad comment re passport controls shows how out of touch with reality you are. That is the exact point. The EU is saying there is no need for passport controls or any kind of visible border either for people or traffic between GB and n. Seems you miss the whole nuance of the debate.
As for your other question. Right or wrong, you again make a mistake. Those are devolved powers and that choice is for NI to make. Has nothing to do with them picking and choosing UK laws, because it is not a UK wide ruling. That should be simple enough to understand? And has nothing to do with brexit


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 09:59 
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BREAKING: Dominic Raab resigns as Brexit secretary

First Cabinet resignation. How many more?


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 10:14 
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Ihearye wrote:
And there was me thinking it was. UK referendum or do you intend to break down the UK electoral area by electoral area and give them special status. Your mad comment re passport controls shows how out of touch with reality you are. That is the exact point. The EU is saying there is no need for passport controls or any kind of visible border either for people or traffic between GB and n. Seems you miss the whole nuance of the debate.
As for your other question. Right or wrong, you again make a mistake. Those are devolved powers and that choice is for NI to make. Has nothing to do with them picking and choosing UK laws, because it is not a UK wide ruling. That should be simple enough to understand? And has nothing to do with brexit


There isn’t and should be no need for any passport controls and hopefully won’t be. But when the first ferry load of Romanians waltz in at Stranraer you know what the GB media and Tory-right will say to appease the anti-immigration lobby; build a wall and put in passport desks.

As for special status - you will see in my post I agree with you when saying Scotland and London have no right for special status. Any special status for NI in a (hopefully never used) backstop has nothing to do with the referendum vote share, and is solely to do with the social and political history and situation, and the GFA.

Now I know a minority like yourself are against any form of compromise with Nationalists/Separatists and would like minority Unionist rule, but most of the U.K. doesn’t, hence the difficulty in reconciling exit from the CU and SM without damaging the precarious but valuable peace.

The ideal situation of course would be for NI people to get their s#!t together, stop the religious division nonsense and live alongside each other without the need for segregation or power sharing.

EDIT: further to my post above saying this deal has no chance, Raab resigns.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 11:02 
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Johnsons Red Army wrote:
BREAKING: Dominic Raab resigns as Brexit secretary

First Cabinet resignation. How many more?


And another one bites the dust!

BREAKING: Second cabinet minister quits

Esther McVey has resigned as work and pensions secretary


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 11:09 
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Johnsons Red Army wrote:
Johnsons Red Army wrote:
BREAKING: Dominic Raab resigns as Brexit secretary

First Cabinet resignation. How many more?


And another one bites the dust!

BREAKING: Second cabinet minister quits

Esther McVey has resigned as work and pensions secretary


Shame she didn’t do that six months ago when every independent analyst explained how the implementation (not the aim or policy itself) if Universal Credit was horrendous.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 11:39 
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It's up to 4. What a bunch of wallies they all are.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 12:07 
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Shade wrote:
It's up to 4. What a bunch of wallies they all are.


Only two of the four (now five) to resign from post today are cabinet members.

Ministerial and PPS resignations are run-of-the-mill in May’s shambolic tenure.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 14:04 
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"Top Brexiteer to submit no confidence letter in PM

Jacob Rees-Mogg is to submit a letter of no confidence in May's leadership, a spokesman for the European Research Group of Tory MPs says."


Surely the threshold of 48 letters will be reached in the coming days, if not as soon as today.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 15:24 
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In this environmentally-friendly world that we live in, wouldn't it save more paper and be much quicker if they were asked to pen any letters of support?


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 15:28 
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asl wrote:
In this environmentally-friendly world that we live in, wouldn't it save more paper and be much quicker if they were asked to pen any letters of support?


Much harder to get an iconic and symbolic photo on Twitter/in the paper though. And it is bloody nice paper so would be shame not to take advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 15:33 
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asl wrote:
In this environmentally-friendly world that we live in, wouldn't it save more paper and be much quicker if they were asked to pen any letters of support?


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 19:12 
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The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 19:33 
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Red Duke wrote:
The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


Indeed. Then we can look forward to strikes galore and being even further back in the mire after another couple of Labour terms, and God knows what other horrors if Corbyn is "leading" the country.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 19:40 
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Shade wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


Indeed. Then we can look forward to strikes galore and being even further back in the mire after another couple of Labour terms, and God knows what other horrors if Corbyn is "leading" the country.


Spot on. Labour will be a nightmare for employers, what with wanting to give so much power to employees, they have enough already!

Now I’m absolutely against violence towards women, however Corbyn recently said they would give leave to domestic abuse victims, but it’s the employer that has to pay for this and where are they supposed to keep finding the money from? This is just one example I can think of and again, I am certainly behind any victim so don’t get me wrong there.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 19:48 
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Shade wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


Indeed. Then we can look forward to strikes galore and being even further back in the mire after another couple of Labour terms, and God knows what other horrors if Corbyn is "leading" the country.


If the Tory party splits so will Labour; with Remain Labour MPs joining the Conservative ones. A Heidi Allen and Chuka Umunna dream team.

The Brexit nutters like Corbyn and Kate Hoey will then be left in their own party as an irrelevance once more thankfully.

Re: strikes comment. You are a similar age to me I recall, which means the volume of strikes (rail, nhs, fire brigade, university staff, school teachers) has been much greater under Conservative government of 2010-2018 than Labour government of 1997-2010. So not sure what point you are making.

No Deal or No Brexit still the most likely outcomes imo.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 19:58 
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ctfc-fan wrote:
Shade wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


Indeed. Then we can look forward to strikes galore and being even further back in the mire after another couple of Labour terms, and God knows what other horrors if Corbyn is "leading" the country.


Spot on. Labour will be a nightmare for employers, what with wanting to give so much power to employees, they have enough already!

Now I’m absolutely against violence towards women, however Corbyn recently said they would give leave to domestic abuse victims, but it’s the employer that has to pay for this and where are they supposed to keep finding the money from? This is just one example I can think of and again, I am certainly behind any victim so don’t get me wrong there.


The basis of the domestic abuse policy is no different to normal leave policy. Leave for victims to be granted because domestic abuse either results in physical harm or acute mental health issues. If got injured in an assault in a pub or a close relative died leading to escalation of a mental health issue I would get leave for as long as the doctor ordered. No reason why it should be different for domestic abuse victims.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 20:02 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:
Shade wrote:
[quote="Red Duke"]The only positive outcome I can see is that the Tories will split in half, make themselves unelectable and won't be in power for many years to come.


Indeed. Then we can look forward to strikes galore and being even further back in the mire after another couple of Labour terms, and God knows what other horrors if Corbyn is "leading" the country.


Spot on. Labour will be a nightmare for employers, what with wanting to give so much power to employees, they have enough already!

Now I’m absolutely against violence towards women, however Corbyn recently said they would give leave to domestic abuse victims, but it’s the employer that has to pay for this and where are they supposed to keep finding the money from? This is just one example I can think of and again, I am certainly behind any victim so don’t get me wrong there.


The basis of the domestic abuse policy is no different to normal leave policy. Leave for victims to be granted because domestic abuse either results in physical harm or acute mental health issues. If got injured in an assault in a pub or a close relative died leading to escalation of a mental health issue I would get leave for as long as the doctor ordered. No reason why it should be different for domestic abuse victims.[/quote]

Read my post again RCS, I said this is just an example.

Labour want employers to give so many perks to their employees but they aren’t the ones taking a hit or paying for it. The employer still has to pay the employee (if in their contract) and yet isn’t earning anything from that employee and for small companies may even have to fund a replacement person.

If they want to give all these perks away, let them reimburse the employer. Will they do this? Of course not.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 20:26 
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Maybe if you use an example which most people would consider to be more of a perk than being physically or emotionally abused it would help make your point better. Unless you consider sick pay or maternity pay to be ‘perks’?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for business and would in fact cut corporation tax to 5% or lower.

Plus, if you were to ask my employer to choose between these two options, which do you think they would choose: a) sort out a failing rail network which cost me about 1 hour of work every week due to delays etc for the last year and no sign of improving or b) have to agree that in the unlikely event I am physically or mentally abused they will have to pay sick pay in line with their existing policy.

There are more ways to help businesses than restricting workers freedom (happy and motivated workers are more productive)...better tax regime, better internet speed, better transport, better skills provision for and information on latest industrial digital technology, more affordable housing market in close proximity, computers which don’t meltdown three times a week when Windows 10 upgrades. Etc etc.

In fact, of all the things which enable successful business, not allowing victims of abuse sick pay is quite a small factor.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 20:56 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Maybe if you use an example which most people would consider to be more of a perk than being physically or emotionally abused it would help make your point better. Unless you consider sick pay or maternity pay to be ‘perks’?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for business and would in fact cut corporation tax to 5% or lower.

Plus, if you were to ask my employer to choose between these two options, which do you think they would choose: a) sort out a failing rail network which cost me about 1 hour of work every week due to delays etc for the last year and no sign of improving or b) have to agree that in the unlikely event I am physically or mentally abused they will have to pay sick pay in line with their existing policy.

There are more ways to help businesses than restricting workers freedom (happy and motivated workers are more productive)...better tax regime, better internet speed, better transport, better skills provision for and information on latest industrial digital technology, more affordable housing market in close proximity, computers which don’t meltdown three times a week when Windows 10 upgrades. Etc etc.

In fact, of all the things which enable successful business, not allowing victims of abuse sick pay is quite a small factor.


Oh FSS RCS!

It was ONE example because it was in my mind, stop going on!

And how you get to work isn’t your employers business. Your responsibility to your employer is to be at your place of work for your start time. How you get there isn’t their concern.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 21:48 
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ctfc-fan wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Maybe if you use an example which most people would consider to be more of a perk than being physically or emotionally abused it would help make your point better. Unless you consider sick pay or maternity pay to be ‘perks’?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for business and would in fact cut corporation tax to 5% or lower.

Plus, if you were to ask my employer to choose between these two options, which do you think they would choose: a) sort out a failing rail network which cost me about 1 hour of work every week due to delays etc for the last year and no sign of improving or b) have to agree that in the unlikely event I am physically or mentally abused they will have to pay sick pay in line with their existing policy.

There are more ways to help businesses than restricting workers freedom (happy and motivated workers are more productive)...better tax regime, better internet speed, better transport, better skills provision for and information on latest industrial digital technology, more affordable housing market in close proximity, computers which don’t meltdown three times a week when Windows 10 upgrades. Etc etc.

In fact, of all the things which enable successful business, not allowing victims of abuse sick pay is quite a small factor.


Oh FSS RCS!

It was ONE example because it was in my mind, stop going on!

And how you get to work isn’t your employers business. Your responsibility to your employer is to be at your place of work for your start time. How you get there isn’t their concern.


Crikey. No wonder we are suffering from poor productivity in the U.K. with attitudes like that. Whilst a business is not responsible for how employees get to work, they will benefit if employees arrive in a timely manner without stress. Why are we building HS2? To facilitate faster business travel. Why do we build data centres? To provide business with faster and better data, etc etc.

The point I am making is that simultaneously investing in business infrastructure, reducing tax, and legislating to improve employee conditions (and thus productivity) helps business - the productivity gains outweigh any bits of extra sick leave and flexibility. You have to look at the whole package rather than focusing on a cost of a legislation without considering the wider environment.

Now I am not suggesting Labour are doing all this in any way as Corbyn doesn’t understand productivity or the modern economy - just making the point that the cliched gripes about ‘employee rights’ is unimaginative and not a useful way of thinking.

Sorry to go on - just so frustrating still seeing people going on about employee rights!


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 22:23 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Maybe if you use an example which most people would consider to be more of a perk than being physically or emotionally abused it would help make your point better. Unless you consider sick pay or maternity pay to be ‘perks’?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for business and would in fact cut corporation tax to 5% or lower.

Plus, if you were to ask my employer to choose between these two options, which do you think they would choose: a) sort out a failing rail network which cost me about 1 hour of work every week due to delays etc for the last year and no sign of improving or b) have to agree that in the unlikely event I am physically or mentally abused they will have to pay sick pay in line with their existing policy.

There are more ways to help businesses than restricting workers freedom (happy and motivated workers are more productive)...better tax regime, better internet speed, better transport, better skills provision for and information on latest industrial digital technology, more affordable housing market in close proximity, computers which don’t meltdown three times a week when Windows 10 upgrades. Etc etc.

In fact, of all the things which enable successful business, not allowing victims of abuse sick pay is quite a small factor.


Oh FSS RCS!

It was ONE example because it was in my mind, stop going on!

And how you get to work isn’t your employers business. Your responsibility to your employer is to be at your place of work for your start time. How you get there isn’t their concern.


Crikey. No wonder we are suffering from poor productivity in the U.K. with attitudes like that. Whilst a business is not responsible for how employees get to work, they will benefit if employees arrive in a timely manner without stress. Why are we building HS2? To facilitate faster business travel. Why do we build data centres? To provide business with faster and better data, etc etc.

The point I am making is that simultaneously investing in business infrastructure, reducing tax, and legislating to improve employee conditions (and thus productivity) helps business - the productivity gains outweigh any bits of extra sick leave and flexibility. You have to look at the whole package rather than focusing on a cost of a legislation without considering the wider environment.

Now I am not suggesting Labour are doing all this in any way as Corbyn doesn’t understand productivity or the modern economy - just making the point that the cliched gripes about ‘employee rights’ is unimaginative and not a useful way of thinking.

Sorry to go on - just so frustrating still seeing people going on about employee rights!


You don’t need to teach me about business RCS. I run 3, employing 20 people and turning over £2m per year.

I’ve just had to get rid of an employee for a reason I won’t go into however they were taking the p!## all along with their main reason and this has cost me time, money and energy which could’ve been better spent on the hard working employees. Their rights outweighed ours.


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 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 22:42 
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Which is why I’d like your business to pay almost zero tax!

And if your hard working employees were even more productive (working hard doesn’t mean working productively) then you’d be even better off!

Yes you had one person taking the pizz, but is one or two bag eggs reason to subjugate the whole labour market? If it leads to more staff turnover and recruitment costs, and lower productivity then plainly not.


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