Register    Login    Search    FAQ



CTFC.com Official Site Cheltenham Town FC 500 Club

Other Useful Links:     Leo's Blog    Robins Trust    CTFC Chatter    Football Ground Guide    This is Gloucestershire    News Now    CTFC History Site

Board index » THE NEST » NON FOOTY/JOKES ETC




 Page 3 of 6 [ 202 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next



Author Message
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018, 19:41 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
FactCheck on May’s claims this morning:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... stop-claim


Top  Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018, 20:12 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
My only surviving grandparent, to paraphrase, came to and my cousins (some older some ten or more years younger than me) and asked “I only have a few years left, you have the rest of your lives - how do you want me to vote?” Regardless of our opinions, we appreciated that.


What a lovely and thoughtful thing to do


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 13:22 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Coward May bottles it. Tuesday’s vote postponed.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 13:55 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Do you know this as fact, certainly nothing has been announced?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 14:11 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
SHANDY VOR wrote:
Do you know this as fact, certainly nothing has been announced?


Not 100% fact but being reported as good as: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ul-vote-eu


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 14:30 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
You may well be right, but until it is announced then it is not fact, so please stop passing supposition off as fact. You are then basing an opinion on unconfirmed fact, to support a view you hold.

You should know better doing the job you do.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 14:44 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
SHANDY VOR wrote:
You may well be right, but until it is announced then it is not fact, so please stop passing supposition off as fact. You are then basing an opinion on unconfirmed fact, to support a view you hold.

You should know better doing the job you do.


My job is to review evidence and trends to produce recommendations and strategies. Clients would need this done if findings were already clear and available!

So re: May bottling. Journalists reporting it on Twitter saying it looks like a duck. Pound falling to 18th month low suggesting it swims like a duck. And reaction from commentators and other politicos sounds like it quacks like a duck. So to conclude?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:02 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
That you can never be sure that it is a duck until you know it is a duck. It was the same gunjumpery that caught people out when the votes were counted in 2016.

Don't be a duckin fick


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:17 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
SHANDY VOR wrote:
That you can never be sure that it is a duck until you know it is a duck. It was the same gunjumpery that caught people out when the votes were counted in 2016.

Don't be a duckin fick


Lol. The Westminster and media bubble assuming they knew the outcome of the vote (I for one thought it would be close either way) is a different situation from MPs from the governing party briefing journalists the vote is being delayed after an energy cabinet meeting has been convened and the agenda / order of business changed. It was as good as fact May was going to instruct the vote to be delayed (or “deferred” as she used in the cabinet meeting) when I posted my original statement.

May’s announcement in 15 mins. The timing purely driven by how long it takes to write the speech in my view.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:40 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:37
Posts: 4406
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Quack.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:52 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
asl wrote:
Quack.


Duck noise or description of lame duck PM?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:54 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:37
Posts: 4406
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Her position is surely untenable. The problem is that there's nobody in the Conservative party to take over from her.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 17:18 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
asl wrote:
Her position is surely untenable. The problem is that there's nobody in the Conservative party to take over from her.


Well, no one who wants to (political suicide until the mess resolved) or no one who can appeal to both the no-dealers and people’s-voters who control the two flanks of the party.

At least a new leader and general election or people’s vote would give a replacement a mandate.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 17:23 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:37
Posts: 4406
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Alas, I agree. A GE seems unavoidable.

"Oh, no... Not ANOTHER one..."

To appease the Brexiteers, we wave in the economically illiterate. Hooray. And there was much rejoicing.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 17:35 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
asl wrote:
Alas, I agree. A GE seems unavoidable.

"Oh, no... Not ANOTHER one..."

To appease the Brexiteers, we wave in the economically illiterate. Hooray. And there was much rejoicing.


GE would change the parliamentary maths. Big cities elect more MPs than small towns in the East Midlands or rural areas in East Yorkshire. And the big cities are more Remain than Leave, so a likely result is a whole load of Remain MPs from the big cities end up ignoring the initial referendum and causing more division. This is why I back the most democratic solution of a people’s vote so that the majority who voted to leave the EU can state their preference of how that should be done.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 17:46 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I am surprised that I've not read as much about this as I thought I would, given the amount of material on the subject, but what do people think will happen on the streets of Britain should we remain in Europe after all? Do you think there will be rioting and civil disorder, and potentially the biggest political split since the Roundheads and Cavaliers clashed some 350 plus years ago. And if not (or eventually afterwards) then surely there will be disillusionment and distrust for many of those who didn't vote before Brexit and will never vote again - this is probably something that 'the establishment' want as it preserves the current order.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 17:52 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
And if there is a General Election I think every single current sitting MP will be asked whether they want to be in or out and should be elected or not on that basis, with the opposite view being promoted by the challenger. I think that almost uniquely in British history party lines will count for little, Brexit or not will be the defining issue for almost everyone. Then the result of the election would mirror the will of the people, currently it appears that politicians and the people are miles apart and that's not healthy.

Or am I being far too simplistic?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 18:27 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:15
Posts: 1042
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
SHANDY VOR wrote:
And if there is a General Election I think every single current sitting MP will be asked whether they want to be in or out and should be elected or not on that basis, with the opposite view being promoted by the challenger. I think that almost uniquely in British history party lines will count for little, Brexit or not will be the defining issue for almost everyone. Then the result of the election would mirror the will of the people, currently it appears that politicians and the people are miles apart and that's not healthy.

Or am I being far too simplistic?


Yes, because more than one candidate can stand and with first past the post system, you can be elected as an MP with possibly less than 25% of the vote.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 18:28 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
SHANDY VOR wrote:
And if there is a General Election I think every single current sitting MP will be asked whether they want to be in or out and should be elected or not on that basis, with the opposite view being promoted by the challenger. I think that almost uniquely in British history party lines will count for little, Brexit or not will be the defining issue for almost everyone. Then the result of the election would mirror the will of the people, currently it appears that politicians and the people are miles apart and that's not healthy.

Or am I being far too simplistic?


That is precisely the point I made and why a Peeps Vote is better.

MPs would indeed run on a No Deal vs No Brexit ticket. This would skew the vote. London alone has 73 of the 650 MPs (11%). By the time you add on all the other big cities, middle class towns, Scotland and NI then there will be a Parliamentary majority for No Brexit, which is against the referendum and could be viewed as a stitch up. A people’s vote at least gives equal voice to each voter and lets them decide on how Brexit should be delivered.

It is the failure of the First Past the Post system which left so many people disillusioned and left behind and forgotten about by Westminster leading to the Brexit vote. So First Past the Post can’t solve it.

So maybe one upshot from the crisis will be the introduction of proportional representation voting, at least in one chamber if fptp is retained for the second.


Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 10 Dec 2018, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 18:34 
Offline

Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 17:13
Posts: 221
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
OK, that one answered

What about civil disturbance. Thoughts?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 18:50 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
SHANDY VOR wrote:
OK, that one answered

What about civil disturbance. Thoughts?


Tough one as it is a complete role reversal.

Historically in Britain, demonstrations have been led by the young, liberal, and campaigning organisations and campaigning MPs. These are all on the Remain side. The ‘typical Brexiter’ are usually slagging of protesters as student hippies with no jobs etc.

Can you really see the likes of Boris Johnson leading a group of 50+ slightly portly people on a riot? And then younger Brexit voters don’t seem the sort to have the organisation or drive to mobilise a campaign.

Obviously a chance the likes of Yaxley-Lennon will hijack discontent and try and turn it into a far right demo. However history shows (including on the weekend just gone) that any far right demo in Britain is outnumbered by anti-fascists counter protests by a magnitude.

So whilst any protests which are far right vs anti fascist may turn violent, thinking purely about Brexit marches the danger for Brexiters is that any protest which they arrange will be outnumbered significantly by Remain counter protests, which is not good optics when trying to prove the will of the people.

So I don’t think there is a risk. I think the bigger threat of civil unrest is if No Deal causes chaos, which is when students, youth movements, campaigning organisations, anarchists etc will come out in force and are more likely to be violent.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 19:30 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:15
Posts: 1042
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
SHANDY VOR wrote:
OK, that one answered

What about civil disturbance. Thoughts?


I think our MP's need to think very carefully. The country voted for Brexit and as a remainer I accept the result as we live in a democracy.

If they go against the electorate's wishes, then it is the end of democracy.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018, 19:44 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 09:08
Posts: 642
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
asl wrote:
Alas, I agree. A GE seems unavoidable.

"Oh, no... Not ANOTHER one..."

To appease the Brexiteers, we wave in the economically illiterate. Hooray. And there was much rejoicing.


GE would change the parliamentary maths. Big cities elect more MPs than small towns in the East Midlands or rural areas in East Yorkshire. And the big cities are more Remain than Leave, so a likely result is a whole load of Remain MPs from the big cities end up ignoring the initial referendum and causing more division. This is why I back the most democratic solution of a people’s vote so that the majority who voted to leave the EU can state their preference of how that should be done.

So pray tell us what would be the question on that 'lets keep on asking people to vote until I get an answer I like' referendum? Surely to God not the ones in your so well supported poll on here ? What about people who want an option for a Brexit leaning persosn to have a go at negotiating. Then another option for those who say they should go straight in to trade talks without wasting 2 years dancing to the EU tune of settle the divorce bill first? Then another option for those who would take the current deal without a back stop option. Then for those who may be soft remainers, what type of EU do they want to sign up to? The as is scenario, the attempted David Cameron scenario? The closer links to EU scenario e.g foreign policy etc. The list is endless, but I somehow think you would want the question engineered to give you the result you want. aka have you stopped beating your wife


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 00:52 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Ihearye wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
asl wrote:
Alas, I agree. A GE seems unavoidable.

"Oh, no... Not ANOTHER one..."

To appease the Brexiteers, we wave in the economically illiterate. Hooray. And there was much rejoicing.


GE would change the parliamentary maths. Big cities elect more MPs than small towns in the East Midlands or rural areas in East Yorkshire. And the big cities are more Remain than Leave, so a likely result is a whole load of Remain MPs from the big cities end up ignoring the initial referendum and causing more division. This is why I back the most democratic solution of a people’s vote so that the majority who voted to leave the EU can state their preference of how that should be done.

So pray tell us what would be the question on that 'lets keep on asking people to vote until I get an answer I like' referendum? Surely to God not the ones in your so well supported poll on here ? What about people who want an option for a Brexit leaning persosn to have a go at negotiating. Then another option for those who say they should go straight in to trade talks without wasting 2 years dancing to the EU tune of settle the divorce bill first? Then another option for those who would take the current deal without a back stop option. Then for those who may be soft remainers, what type of EU do they want to sign up to? The as is scenario, the attempted David Cameron scenario? The closer links to EU scenario e.g foreign policy etc. The list is endless, but I somehow think you would want the question engineered to give you the result you want. aka have you stopped beating your wife


Vote Round 1 options:
Leave
Remain

Vote Round 2:
Deal
No Deal

Whilst ‘go back and negotiate’ is a preferable option, that opens a can of worms and sets a precedent for a vote on every new deal and we never leave!

I would also weigh the vote in favour of the 2016 result. For the first referendum to be overturned I would set a minimum turnout threshold in Round 1, and Remain can only win if it gets more than 55.00%. So if it does swing to say 52-48 the other way, that is not a clear enough mandate to revoke Article 50.

What is the alternative? Parliament is too split to vote anything through. A GE will lead to No Deal if a Rees-Mogg candidate has a majority, a new negotiation period if Corbyn wins, or a People’s Vote if anyone else wins.

It is not about multiple votes until I get the answer I want or any other facetious snide bullshit like that so grow up and look at the situation. It is about actually getting something done and getting the situation sorted with a deal or no deal or whatever. The Government says their deal is the best one possible. Fine, I will accept that. Others say No Deal is better. That’s their prerogative. Those are the only two exit options which can be signed off by Parliament. Two tangible outcomes to give people something to vote on - rather than slogans on a bus or a picture of refugees in Croatia. I just hope the EU tell May to go home if she tries to negotiate anymore. She said this was the best possible deal so the EU should tell us to bloody well get on with it and have the vote in Parliament. And if MPs reject the Deal and reject No Deal, who else is there to turn to apart from the people those MPs are supposed to serve.

Only a GE could lead to a renegotiation in my view - and as long as the ERG hold their party to ransom a change of Government would have to happen at that GE. And if FPTP favours Remain MPs then that is not going to help deliver the result of 2016 (whatever it was people voted for in 2016, which we could ask them to clarify now of course).

What is your solution to the current impasse in Parliament? Not what you would like to see or think should be done, just what, given the Parliamentary maths and different positions in the Common you think is a possible route out of this mess to an exit from EU at the end of March 2019?


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 08:20 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Red Duke wrote:
SHANDY VOR wrote:
OK, that one answered

What about civil disturbance. Thoughts?


I think our MP's need to think very carefully. The country voted for Brexit and as a remainer I accept the result as we live in a democracy.

If they go against the electorate's wishes, then it is the end of democracy.


Looking beyond the fact the winners of that democratic vote are currently under criminal investigation for breaking electoral rules of course.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 09:35 
Offline

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:15
Posts: 1042
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
SHANDY VOR wrote:
OK, that one answered

What about civil disturbance. Thoughts?


I think our MP's need to think very carefully. The country voted for Brexit and as a remainer I accept the result as we live in a democracy.

If they go against the electorate's wishes, then it is the end of democracy.


Looking beyond the fact the winners of that democratic vote are currently under criminal investigation for breaking electoral rules of course.


The investigation seems to be motivated by a bunch of poor losers. It wasn't the breaking of electoral rules that caused their defeat, it was the disconnection between Westminster and the rest of the country and the disastrous "Project Fear" that was run.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 09:49 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
What have they been feeding you down in Manchester Red Duke? The sore losers in the independent electoral commission. If the Met Police pursue a full blown investigation are they sore losers, or will you up your Trump style response and call it a witch hunt?

But that is for a later date. As you say, the different campaigns had different merits. So, rather than a vote based on project fear vs dark ads Facebook funded by US and Russia, now that we have much more information why not have a vote so that the 17.4 million who voted to leave can a) confirm they still want to and b) say whether they want to leave with May’ Deal or No Deal.

That would be much more democratic and ensure MPs are voting on the mandate from the people rather than to protect their own position or group in Parliament, which seems to be your main concern.

If you see a more realistic way for the constitutional deadlock to be resolved in a way which takes MP squabbles and factions out of play and delivers on the 2016 mandate in the way most people in Britain want then please do suggest it.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 10:48 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 09:08
Posts: 642
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Where do I start?
To kick off the keep voting until we get something we like, is and was not a snide remark. It is a tactic employed by Euro leaning bodies over many years. Wear the people down until they are past caring anymore. Not the greatest advertisement for democracy?

Re the go back and negotiate may see us never leave. That I believe is the exact same position as the deal brokered by Mrs May. There is no definite way of bringing about leaving.

So if Remain got 55% of the vote and Leave 45%. The that would legitimise ignoring the will of the 45%? Sits oddly with the view that we should attempt to reach a deal which can also appeal to the current 48%. Am I to take it then that it is your view if leave had polled 55% in 2016, then all of this would be a side show, as there would be a mandate to just leave whatever?

Peoples Vote – I thought we had already had one of those. Not to mention that in the GE, both major parties stood for election on a Brexit ticket, exactly how much of a mandate are you after? The fact that the reversing lights are on, is more a reflection of the standard of those elected, than the views of the electorate ?

The Government says this is the best deal possible – If the last few weeks and subsequent pulling of today’s vote, proves nothing else, it makes that statement very debateable. A section of the Government thinks it is the best deal possible. Among those is the likes of Mr Gove, who has more faces than anyone I have ever come across and doesn’t even need as much as 30 pieces of silver.

Slogans on a bus, project fear etc etc etc. Nobody came out of 2016 with a clean bill of health and firmly believe that the attitude of some of us who voted remain, towards those that voted leave. Has done just as much damage to the ever growing split in this country. The left leaning quickly point to Mr Farage, however the branding and continued branding of anyone who voted leave as either racist or just to stupid to know what they were voting for, is just as demeaning. As I commented, people voting remain, were, I guess, saying happy with things as they are now. Did that mean they then thought 20 years down the road and what the EU may well develop in to and still said yeah am all for that? Doubt it.

The house of Parliament can not vote down a no deal, unless the Government offers them that option. There is no sound or idea of that happening. The motion passed last week re MP’s having more say, is just that, a motion. It can not be enforced.

GE – I would find it an absolute corruption of a GE if each MP was to be elected due to their views on Brexit! My MP is in Parliament for so so many reasons, I want a good MP, not one who is rubbish but happens to hold the same views on Brexit as I do.

My view on a way forward – The main sticking point of this deal would appear to be the backstop and its indefinite term. A simple solution would be to have a finite duration. If the good will is as good on both sides as we are always told, then setting a deadline will only aid to get to a conclusion sooner. I believe that if the deal was brought back with an end date to the backstop (the alternative at the end of that date was an understood and agreed no deal). Then Parliament would be given a viable option that all parties could unite behind. OK it may still disgruntle some. However after listening to the commons day after day, hour after hour. It does appear that the term ‘backstop’ is thrown up as the reason for the rejection. We seem to be dancing to the tune of the UK having to do something to stop the RoI from erecting a hard border? Why then is the onus on the UK to have to be tied in to an institution that the referendum wanted to leave, all in the name of stopping the RoI from creating a border. UK government has made it clear, they will not be creating any hard border. Or have I got that bit wrong.
The sudden interest and expertise of so any MP’s in all things NI is amazing to watch. There sudden interest in the GFA and their clinging to it as a way to prevent Brexit. Even Sinn Fein do not thing a hard border would see a return to violence. For obvious reasons they don’t want one, but they are not peddling the violence agenda like some are. Seems the RoI and EU seem to have also steam rollered the GFA in so far as it is documented and agreed in it that all things covering the EU and RoI can not be agreed by Houses of parliament, only from the Assembly in NI. The fact that is not sitting is largely irrelevant, as we are now being constantly reminded that it is the legal text that matters.
In short, I don’t believe that just because a few Civil Servants have negotiated the first deal in their lives, that it is then the best deal, EU is used to negotiating trade deals etc and are not going to blink unless they have to. We need to get to the position that they have to. Because the treatment and attitude handed out by the EU, now makes me believe we should be best out of it. I believed if they had given a bit to Cameron, none of this would have happened.
Business needs certainty I constantly hear, no matter what than certainty is. In that case this deal does not deliver that. The ports up the east coast of UK are relishing a no deal, as a greater share of the shipping will head that way. There are ways to soften a no deal. Nobody thinks its the ideal, but both sides in negotiation must realise it is the other option from not making the backstop time limited.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 11:03 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Ihearye wrote:
Where do I start?
To kick off the keep voting until we get something we like, is and was not a snide remark. It is a tactic employed by Euro leaning bodies over many years. Wear the people down until they are past caring anymore. Not the greatest advertisement for democracy?

Re the go back and negotiate may see us never leave. That I believe is the exact same position as the deal brokered by Mrs May. There is no definite way of bringing about leaving.

So if Remain got 55% of the vote and Leave 45%. The that would legitimise ignoring the will of the 45%? Sits oddly with the view that we should attempt to reach a deal which can also appeal to the current 48%. Am I to take it then that it is your view if leave had polled 55% in 2016, then all of this would be a side show, as there would be a mandate to just leave whatever?

Peoples Vote – I thought we had already had one of those. Not to mention that in the GE, both major parties stood for election on a Brexit ticket, exactly how much of a mandate are you after? The fact that the reversing lights are on, is more a reflection of the standard of those elected, than the views of the electorate ?

The Government says this is the best deal possible – If the last few weeks and subsequent pulling of today’s vote, proves nothing else, it makes that statement very debateable. A section of the Government thinks it is the best deal possible. Among those is the likes of Mr Gove, who has more faces than anyone I have ever come across and doesn’t even need as much as 30 pieces of silver.

Slogans on a bus, project fear etc etc etc. Nobody came out of 2016 with a clean bill of health and firmly believe that the attitude of some of us who voted remain, towards those that voted leave. Has done just as much damage to the ever growing split in this country. The left leaning quickly point to Mr Farage, however the branding and continued branding of anyone who voted leave as either racist or just to stupid to know what they were voting for, is just as demeaning. As I commented, people voting remain, were, I guess, saying happy with things as they are now. Did that mean they then thought 20 years down the road and what the EU may well develop in to and still said yeah am all for that? Doubt it.

The house of Parliament can not vote down a no deal, unless the Government offers them that option. There is no sound or idea of that happening. The motion passed last week re MP’s having more say, is just that, a motion. It can not be enforced.

GE – I would find it an absolute corruption of a GE if each MP was to be elected due to their views on Brexit! My MP is in Parliament for so so many reasons, I want a good MP, not one who is rubbish but happens to hold the same views on Brexit as I do.

My view on a way forward – The main sticking point of this deal would appear to be the backstop and its indefinite term. A simple solution would be to have a finite duration. If the good will is as good on both sides as we are always told, then setting a deadline will only aid to get to a conclusion sooner. I believe that if the deal was brought back with an end date to the backstop (the alternative at the end of that date was an understood and agreed no deal). Then Parliament would be given a viable option that all parties could unite behind. OK it may still disgruntle some. However after listening to the commons day after day, hour after hour. It does appear that the term ‘backstop’ is thrown up as the reason for the rejection. We seem to be dancing to the tune of the UK having to do something to stop the RoI from erecting a hard border? Why then is the onus on the UK to have to be tied in to an institution that the referendum wanted to leave, all in the name of stopping the RoI from creating a border. UK government has made it clear, they will not be creating any hard border. Or have I got that bit wrong.
The sudden interest and expertise of so any MP’s in all things NI is amazing to watch. There sudden interest in the GFA and their clinging to it as a way to prevent Brexit. Even Sinn Fein do not thing a hard border would see a return to violence. For obvious reasons they don’t want one, but they are not peddling the violence agenda like some are. Seems the RoI and EU seem to have also steam rollered the GFA in so far as it is documented and agreed in it that all things covering the EU and RoI can not be agreed by Houses of parliament, only from the Assembly in NI. The fact that is not sitting is largely irrelevant, as we are now being constantly reminded that it is the legal text that matters.
In short, I don’t believe that just because a few Civil Servants have negotiated the first deal in their lives, that it is then the best deal, EU is used to negotiating trade deals etc and are not going to blink unless they have to. We need to get to the position that they have to. Because the treatment and attitude handed out by the EU, now makes me believe we should be best out of it. I believed if they had given a bit to Cameron, none of this would have happened.
Business needs certainty I constantly hear, no matter what than certainty is. In that case this deal does not deliver that. The ports up the east coast of UK are relishing a no deal, as a greater share of the shipping will head that way. There are ways to soften a no deal. Nobody thinks its the ideal, but both sides in negotiation must realise it is the other option from not making the backstop time limited.


Will read in more detail but re: your point about ‘if Leave got 55%’. My preference is for the 2016 referendum to be upheld.

I am a democrat and the vote was a clear choice to leave and that should be delivered. I wish the MP vote was happening today and before tea time they either voted yes to the deal or opted for no deal.

My sense is, such is the division and infighting in Parliament, even if Leave won 2016 75% to 25% that we would be in the same situation. Partly because of the different scheming by ERG, SNP, Corbyn etc meaning Parliament cannot achieve anything and partly because other than leaving it is unclear what people voted for so different groups in Parliament can make different claims about the ‘will of the people’.

The only reason I want a People’s Vote is to make MPs deliver the damn instruction from 2016 by providing clarity on what the will of the people is. The only reason I mentioned the 55% threshold is to make it harder for 2016 to be reversed. If Remain won a second vote 54-46 I would still argue that we must leave because the majority was not strong enough to justify betraying the original vote.

Last thing I want is to be still having this debate in six months time having extended A50 talks due to our failed Parliament. Brexit means Brexit after all, so let’s get the people to tell MPs to get it done.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 11:27 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Re: backstop, hopefully that can be changed to a situation as you describe.

However, is it not more of a case of us putting up a border not RoI? The vote was to take back control of our borders, and with no deal, we will have to treat the RoI-NI border the same as we would arrivals at Dover or Heathrow.

John Major had some interesting comments on this today. As a neutral in the situation who just wishes NI folk could get along, I am more inclined to listen to him than someone who is very obviously partisan and biased on one side of the argument such as yourself.

“Sir John Major has criticised the “breathtaking ignorance” hard Brexiters and self-described “unionistis” over the Irish border and the backstop.

The former prime minister said the backstop was being used as a dangerous “bogus ploy” to crash the Brexit deal.

“We should never forget that the Troubles began in the 1960s with the murder of customs officials at the north-south border,” he told guests at the inaugural Albert Memorial lecture in Longford, Ireland.

He hit out at those in parliament he described as “believing themselves to be unionists”. He said:

Some opinion has shown a breathtaking ignorance of the likely impact unsettling the Good Friday agreement will have on Ireland, north and south.

To them, the Irish demand for a backstop is a bogus ploy, a bogus ploy to keep the UK in a customs union.

Those who mock and disparage the backstop should reflect on the risks of destroying it and stop relying on uninvented fanciful alternatives that for now exist absolutely nowhere.

At stake is not only community relations but security and with it lives as well.

He said he hoped the common sense would prevail.

Whatever may happen at Westminster this week or later, I do not myself believe a majority of members of Parliament at Westminster will permit a hard border to become a reality.

The reckless few ... are in a clear minority and for good reason.”


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 11:47 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 09:08
Posts: 642
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Think we broadly agree, in so far that we should go with the mantra of no deal is better than a bad deal. Take the vote and a quick forehand sees the ball makes its way over the net. Landing right on the baseline. I just now want out of this whole pantomime. Mistake was wasting two years discussing a divorce deal. Straight down to trade talks from the very start. If they EU said no at that stage, then plenty of time to plan for no deal


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 11:52 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Ihearye wrote:
Think we broadly agree, in so far that we should go with the mantra of no deal is better than a bad deal. Take the vote and a quick forehand sees the ball makes its way over the net. Landing right on the baseline. I just now want out of this whole pantomime. Mistake was wasting two years discussing a divorce deal. Straight down to trade talks from the very start. If they EU said no at that stage, then plenty of time to plan for no deal


True that. In hindsight, the General Election last year really didn’t help.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 12:23 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 13:26
Posts: 11996
Location: The Death Star.
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 0 time
What I like to know is that 3 wks ago everyone said it wouldn't go through parliament except Theresa May....why?
What is wrong with this person.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 12:26 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 09:08
Posts: 642
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
TBH the day I would pay any attention to what Mr Major thought (an extreme remain voice), is the day I know I have lost my senses. In saying that much could be applied to any GB politician. Irrespective if you think my views or biased or just at odds with yours. I do feel I do know slightly more about what the good people of NI think, on both sides of the religious divide than your good self. The vote of 2016 suddenly made the pundits and those in the westminster bubble aware that vast swathes of the country feel that nobody gives a feck about them. This belief has been widely held across all sections of the population in NI for many many many of my 72 years. Hence my amusement of how concerned westminster is over the good folk of NI. They were unconcerned for many years as long as the violence stayed in NI and their attitude to the elected representatives merely reinforces that. So to be perfectly frank, Mr Major showed no interest when he was PM. The economic and social decline within NI went un noticed. The fact that political violence was and still is evident, goes unnoticed. E.g. That poor sod that was killed outside his sons school last week. Where was Mr Major then? As he must well know that nothing like that happens without the agreement or knowledge of highr powers. It little becomes him to lecture a population both Unionist or Republican, which in normal circumstances he doesn't give a flying feck about. True story, a cons second of state arrived in NI for a briefing from chief of command in Army at that time. When prsented with a colour coded map of NI political divide, asked what the blue bit was in the middle. Thisfrom a member of the gvernment sent over as the second of state. And you wonder why I and many many others just read such utterances from Mr M and laugh.


Top 
 Post subject: Re: How long....
 Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018, 12:44 
Online
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 04:27
Posts: 19928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Malabus wrote:
What I like to know is that 3 wks ago everyone said it wouldn't go through parliament except Theresa May....why?
What is wrong with this person.


She is hopeless and in an impossible position so worst of both worlds.

Being attacked from all sides by people saying her ‘delivering the will of the people’ is different to their ‘delivering the will of the people’. An argument which could be solved by asking the people what their will is!


Top 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
 Page 3 of 6 [ 202 posts ] Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next




Board index » THE NEST » NON FOOTY/JOKES ETC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: