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 Post subject: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 06 Feb 2019, 16:09 
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Unelected bureaucrat, Donald Tusk said about the heroic brexiters.
How can anyone keep supporting this vile empire, the EU.
Show their true colours once again.

https://apple.news/AOcmX7yZ2Q123nDbphQ708w


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 06 Feb 2019, 16:57 
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Doesn't he have a point?


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 06 Feb 2019, 17:29 
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Spot on Donald Tusk, nice to have a politician who speaks his mind instead of playing to the gallery.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 06 Feb 2019, 22:10 
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A bit mystified by what he was expecting? You have a vote, then the next phase is you negotiate surely. Did he expect someone to turn up, tell him the way it was going to be and he was going to say yes? Wish he had explained that 2 years ago.
Also very laudable that the EU are now so suddenly concerned about the people of NI. They were very quiet about them in the 1970's and 1980's. But hey ho. If it wasn't that it would be Gibalter or to much coco in our chocolate ......


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 06 Feb 2019, 22:17 
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kora wrote:
Spot on Donald Tusk, nice to have a politician who speaks his mind instead of playing to the gallery.

Nice to have a bent politician, must be something to do with being called Donald https://www.dw.com/en/donald-tusks-elep ... a-46168594


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 19:50 
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Ihearye wrote:
A bit mystified by what he was expecting? You have a vote, then the next phase is you negotiate surely. Did he expect someone to turn up, tell him the way it was going to be and he was going to say yes? Wish he had explained that 2 years ago.
Also very laudable that the EU are now so suddenly concerned about the people of NI. They were very quiet about them in the 1970's and 1980's. But hey ho. If it wasn't that it would be Gibalter or to much coco in our chocolate ......

His point was that it would have been nice if some of the more vocal 'Leavers' such as Messrs Johnson and Davies might have had an actual plan. Could have saved over two years of messing about whilst the EU wait for us to work out what we actually want.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 21:12 
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the point is, they will not dicuss a plan, until they settle the divorce. That was the approach demanded by the EU i.e. no discussions intil divorce nill settled. Anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU were not prepared to discuss it, what is the point? Also anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU just say no, then they can still accuse you of not having a plan. They mean a plan that they approve of.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 21:27 
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Ihearye wrote:
the point is, they will not dicuss a plan, until they settle the divorce. That was the approach demanded by the EU i.e. no discussions intil divorce nill settled. Anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU were not prepared to discuss it, what is the point? Also anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU just say no, then they can still accuse you of not having a plan. They mean a plan that they approve of.

But Mr Johnson and his like told us we held all the cards so why did the EU dictate the terms of the negotiations?


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 21:50 
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Ihearye wrote:
the point is, they will not dicuss a plan, until they settle the divorce. That was the approach demanded by the EU i.e. no discussions intil divorce nill settled. Anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU were not prepared to discuss it, what is the point? Also anyone could have had a master plan, but if EU just say no, then they can still accuse you of not having a plan. They mean a plan that they approve of.


Wouldn’t have been hard for Boris or Cameron or other from either side to have spoken to the EU before the referendum to agree what the process would be if Leave won. Might have stopped people coming out with “easiest trade deal in history” comments and May might have waited until Government had more of a clue of what they were doing before issuing A50.

End of the day we are the ones who voted to leave. No reason why the EU needed to bother talking at all. Yet here they are still willing to talk but still waiting to hear what our Government position is.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 22:05 
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oh come on. They haven't been prepared to discuss it withe the PM in the 2 years sice the vote. What makes you think they would have discussed it with NJ or anyone, before the vote ??? That view makes no sense at all. In so far as it would never have happened. Why on earth would the EU have shown what their hand would be before the vote?
The point is, we havent even got to talking about trade deals! How anyone can say it has been hard to get a trade deal, must be mistaking the negotiations over the divorce, with actually discussing a trade relationshhip, thats what comes next. That is if they see sense and compromise on the meaningless backstop. Would say illegal instead of meaningless, but shall await any court review on that one.,
Fully agree on your last point. From day one we should have been discussing a trade deal, relations etc. If that had happened there would be no need for this backstop stalling, But, there is only one party that didnt want to move on to trade talks, and that is the EU. It would have become clear, very early in the negotiations, if they were serious about wanting a mutually beneficial trade deal. However they preferred to wrangle over a border issue which was a non problem apart from LV starting it and would have been nullified by a trade agrement.
So yes, I put the blame squarely at the EU door, for not engaging in talks immediately, rather than 2 years hoping if they were obxtructive enough, we would do an Ireland and keep on voting until they got a result they wanted. Appeasement got us to where we are


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 07 Feb 2019, 22:45 
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Ihearye wrote:
oh come on. They haven't been prepared to discuss it withe the PM in the 2 years sice the vote. What makes you think they would have discussed it with NJ or anyone, before the vote ??? That view makes no sense at all. In so far as it would never have happened. Why on earth would the EU have shown what their hand would be before the vote?
The point is, we havent even got to talking about trade deals! How anyone can say it has been hard to get a trade deal, must be mistaking the negotiations over the divorce, with actually discussing a trade relationshhip, thats what comes next. That is if they see sense and compromise on the meaningless backstop. Would say illegal instead of meaningless, but shall await any court review on that one.,
Fully agree on your last point. From day one we should have been discussing a trade deal, relations etc. If that had happened there would be no need for this backstop stalling, But, there is only one party that didnt want to move on to trade talks, and that is the EU. It would have become clear, very early in the negotiations, if they were serious about wanting a mutually beneficial trade deal. However they preferred to wrangle over a border issue which was a non problem apart from LV starting it and would have been nullified by a trade agrement.
So yes, I put the blame squarely at the EU door, for not engaging in talks immediately, rather than 2 years hoping if they were obxtructive enough, we would do an Ireland and keep on voting until they got a result they wanted. Appeasement got us to where we are


You misunderstood my point. I meant, before the vote and before triggering A50 our government could have asked how the negotiations would work, what the order and timeline would be. I am sure the EU would have told us there and then that withdrawal agreement would have to start before trade talks.

It seems like we triggered A50 then got caught out when the EU said no trade talks before withdrawal agreement. Had we made the effort to find that out before issuing A50 then we could have at least prepared better for the withdrawal talks. But preparing and planning ahead is the opposite of our whole government approach or can kicking and running down the clock.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 09:46 
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RCS, mistood your 'before the referendum' to mean before A50 :)


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 09:56 
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SP, I believe it is commonly acknowleged that negotiations, as much as there wasany. We're firmly in the hands of cicvil servants. Pretty much the reason why we got stuck in 2 years of discussing how we could leave instead of discussing what Europe would look like in 2 years. As a business owner I had higher expectations from our EU partners once the dust had settled. It has saddened me to see them intent on not letting it settle. The interesting thing is, that the tone now coming from many of the elected European heads of goverment are a lot softer that that of the EU bureaucrats and Dublin. Sad thing it you can't get to talk to them directly


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 11:54 
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Ihearye wrote:
RCS, mistood your 'before the referendum' to mean before A50 :)


No reason it couldn’t have been asked before the ref.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 11:58 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ihearye wrote:
RCS, mistood your 'before the referendum' to mean before A50 :)


No reason it couldn’t have been asked before the ref.


Indeed
Wouldn’t have been hard for Boris or Cameron or other from either side to have spoken to the EU before the referendum to agree what the process would be if Leave won
:)


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 12:37 
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The reality is if people would have known how this would pan out or if those leave leaders were forced to be accountable for their actions we would never be where we are now.


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 Post subject: Re: “A special place in Hell”
 Post Posted: 08 Feb 2019, 13:28 
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Ihearye wrote:
SP, I believe it is commonly acknowleged that negotiations, as much as there wasany. We're firmly in the hands of cicvil servants. Pretty much the reason why we got stuck in 2 years of discussing how we could leave instead of discussing what Europe would look like in 2 years. As a business owner I had higher expectations from our EU partners once the dust had settled. It has saddened me to see them intent on not letting it settle. The interesting thing is, that the tone now coming from many of the elected European heads of goverment are a lot softer that that of the EU bureaucrats and Dublin. Sad thing it you can't get to talk to them directly

So who is it then? The civil servants or the EU who made us discuss the withdrawal first? Why didn't former Brexit Secretary and leading Brexiteer Mr Davies do something then or did he lose all his cards? :lol:

Truth is this was always going to happen. None of the Brexit clowns had any idea to implement their ideology, they all ran away and now we all suffer the consequences.


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