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 Post subject: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 19 Dec 2016, 21:11 
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After two years of proxy war in Syria and tit-for-tat in the borderland airspace the feud has escalated. How will Putin react?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38369962


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 19 Dec 2016, 22:05 
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Ask his new BFF in the US to go kick the sh1t out of them?


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 19 Dec 2016, 22:33 
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All glories to Assad and Putin.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 19 Dec 2016, 23:16 
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Malabus wrote:
All glories to Assad and Putin.


Would have been our glory if MPs hadn't bottled going in to sort it out in 2010. People talk about Iraq: well it is obvious that Mosul and Tikrit are doing much better than Aleppo. Failure to intervene in Syria and allow the horror of the last six years to unfold must go down as one the greatest US/UK foreign policy failures of the last 50 years or more.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 05:19 
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The west and the east have been meddling in Middle East politics for decades/centuries and what has it achieved. In essence, not a lot.

The solution to the problem is to stop the supply of weapons. Nobody in the Middle East manufactures them. They are bought from and supplied by others.

If all the major nations all said No at the same time, then maybe it could bring it to a halt. However, they won't as there is too much vested interest in arms supply to stop it.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 11:51 
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I agree with Red Duke.

RCS, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing. Except, as I am sure that you will recall, military intervention was being widely trumpeted by some in the British press as unacceptable at the time. Articles like the below seeking to hammer the failings in Iraq and Afghanistan so strongly in to our minds that objective debate about Syria became impossible. See paragraph one, where the suggestion of chemical weapons is met almost by scoffing from the author.

Had such debate not been stifled by such rags and the influence (at the time) of the Stop The War Coalition, both blinded by their sense of moral righteousness following Tony Blair's misadventures in Iraq, maybe we would have intervened before Russia and Assad could butcher an entire population.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... a-blowback


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 12:06 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
I agree with Red Duke.

RCS, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing. Except, as I am sure that you will recall, military intervention was being widely trumpeted by some in the British press as unacceptable at the time. Articles like the below seeking to hammer the failings in Iraq and Afghanistan so strongly in to our minds that objective debate about Syria became impossible. See paragraph one, where the suggestion of chemical weapons is met almost by scoffing from the author.

Had such debate not been stifled by such rags and the influence (at the time) of the Stop The War Coalition, both blinded by their sense of moral righteousness following Tony Blair's misadventures in Iraq, maybe we would have intervened before Russia and Assad could butcher an entire population.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... a-blowback


The Press should be in charge of foreign policy. I do not consider getting rid of Saddam a misadventure. Just a shame the lefty-pacifists and righteous media were happy for an even worse leader to go unopposed.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 12:22 
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The trouble in the west today is that liberalism won the cultural war with the right of politics. As a result, expressing a view that is from the right side of the political spectrum results in the liberal and 'tolerant' left labeling you a racist, a bigot, a capitalist or war monger. Popular culture does not tolerate the right, celebrities do not endorse the right - and hence the backlash you end up with - Brexit, Trump, Matteo Renzi/Italy, Marine Le Pen.

Intervention was inconceivable in Syria because there was absolutely no platform for public debate. Any mention of intervention would result in Iraq and WMDs being thrown in your face, irrespective of whether you are trying to compare apples and pears. The chance of healthy debate was killed by liberal media, and hence it could only happen over the coffee or dinner table and not among our elected representatives or on television.

I agree that removing Saddam was worth the entry fee alone, WMDs would have been a bonus. Try saying that as an elected representative in this country...they'd be torn to shreds by militant liberals like Owen Jones, who cannot conceive an opinion that does not conform to complete acceptance of all liberal values (ironic isn't it).


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 14:07 
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Good post, Circa.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 14:55 
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Also ironic that the main reason TO intervene when tyrants are slaughtering specific ethnic/demographic/social groups is because they are extremely non-liberal. Yet you tell a anti-intervention pacifist that the only way to make Syria liberal is to go in and get rid of the autocracy and fascist rebels and they look at you in horror.

Farage and Le Pen have no interest either. I'm certain Nigel Farage would be as against going in to Syria as Owen Jones. For different regions (Farage insular and close-minded, Jones for some hippy pacifist ideology).

In my view true liberals support going into Syria in order to sort out the tyrants and fascists there.

Plus, I don't see why we can't call a spade a spade. If someone doesn't like foreigners, or thinks homosexuality is wrong, or that men and women are not equal then let's not pander to them. They are, in these examples, racist, homophobic or misogynist plain and simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 15:08 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
In my view true liberals support going into Syria in order to sort out the tyrants and fascists there.
.


People would not have an issue with that. But once you have got rid of Assad and his mates, what do you do next?


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 15:11 
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Regarding Farage - i'm not sure, he has let his admiration of Putin be known, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is pro intervention - but that doesn't matter either way.

Regarding your last paragraph, we can call a spade a spade. But as the EU referendum and US election debates proved, decent people who just so happen to lean to the right of the political spectrum, are regularly labelled negatively. If you have any concern around immigration - you're a little England-er and a racist or from a basket of deplorables.

The left has become so arrogant and intolerable in its beliefs, that even when it is democratically defeated, it takes the stance that the morality and intelligence of the nation has deteriorated and we have regressed as a species....and for our sake, it will try and undermine and overturn democratic process to save us all.

For the record, I have voted once each for Liberal, Labour, Conservative and Independent during general elections and would class myself as a floating voter.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 15:14 
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Red Duke wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
In my view true liberals support going into Syria in order to sort out the tyrants and fascists there.
.


People would not have an issue with that. But once you have got rid of Assad and his mates, what do you do next?


This is arguably the bigger question, isn't it - and one that history is yet to teach us the perfect answer to.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 15:30 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
The left has become so arrogant and intolerable in its beliefs, that even when it is democratically defeated, it takes the stance that the morality and intelligence of the nation has deteriorated and we have regressed as a species....and for our sake, it will try and undermine and overturn democratic process to save us all.

.


It is not just the left. It is the ruling elite. They always think they know best and we Joe Public just need to be conned once every five years to vote them back onto their Gravy Train.

They use big businesses with deplorable working practices such as Southern Rail and Sport Direct to fund their expensive lifestyles with money that they haven't earned.

Let's hope that the Gravy Train gets derailed but know doubt if it does, it will be our fault not theirs.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 15:43 
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I agree.

One of the things that riles me the most though is that the ruling elite expect us all, because we are so simple and incapable of independent thought, to value a sermon in politics from Eddie Izzard, Michael Sheen, Beyonce, Katy Perry, Sarah Silverman and the like. They are all so in tune with us and our lives that we can only be uneducated bigots if we do not align with their views.

I honestly believe that the general public is perceived to be a brain dead collection of imbeciles that will nod to whatever is said.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 16:15 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
In my view true liberals support going into Syria in order to sort out the tyrants and fascists there.
.


People would not have an issue with that. But once you have got rid of Assad and his mates, what do you do next?


This is arguably the bigger question, isn't it - and one that history is yet to teach us the perfect answer to.


I alluded to this in an above post when I said Mosul and Tikrit were better off after intervention that Aleppo and Raqqa are without. A vague plan for democracy would have been forged and defined as the situation developed.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 16:24 
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The one problem of those who have called for change is to deliver it. Will our politicians be able to deliver Brexit, will Donald Trump on his rhetoric?


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 16:35 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
Regarding Farage - i'm not sure, he has let his admiration of Putin be known, so I wouldn't be surprised if he is pro intervention - but that doesn't matter either way.

Regarding your last paragraph, we can call a spade a spade. But as the EU referendum and US election debates proved, decent people who just so happen to lean to the right of the political spectrum, are regularly labelled negatively. If you have any concern around immigration - you're a little England-er and a racist or from a basket of deplorables.

The left has become so arrogant and intolerable in its beliefs, that even when it is democratically defeated, it takes the stance that the morality and intelligence of the nation has deteriorated and we have regressed as a species....and for our sake, it will try and undermine and overturn democratic process to save us all.

For the record, I have voted once each for Liberal, Labour, Conservative and Independent during general elections and would class myself as a floating voter.


I agree with the arrogance accusations for some liberals and those on the left. Some of it is as out of touch, ignorant and ideologically driven as those on the right (esp. the likes of Farage and Trump who are arrogant enough to say their multi-million pound childhoods means they don't need to listen to evidence and data).

Immigration is the most sensitive issue. I think the knee-jerk of brandishing people who dislike immigrants comes from a poorly expressed frustration that the wrong people are being blamed.

Obviously immigration has driven down wages in low skilled jobs. That is pretty much economic consensus. However, do you blame Polish people for moving here when offered a job in a sandwich factory which pays more than an office job in Krakow. Or do you blame the sandwich factory for recruiting in Krakow because they know they can recruit cheap insecure labour and drive down costs. I would say it is pretty clear the factory is to blame. Therefore I think it is wrong if people say 'Polish go home' and attack Polish people or shops. If you don't want the factory to do that then the rational thing is to vote for a government which will clamp down on poor business practice and increase the minimum wage and make sure it is enforced properly for immigrants working for gangmasters, which currently it is not. I would not say someone is racist for blaming the Poles in this situation, just that they are uninformed of the reality. Obviously, if someone attacks a Pole because they are Polish then they are racist by definition.

So Brexit is the ultimate blame of the immigrants: leave the EU to cut down supply of cheap labour. When if we acted to stop the demand, we could have stayed in the EU and had the best of both worlds.

Business have been in a race to the bottom, and politicians have joined them rather than try to stop them.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 19:58 
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Everything that is wrong with generation snowflake and the current face of liberalism, in one handy video:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MTVNews/stat ... 20/video/1

Words escape me.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 20:20 
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Wow that's bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 20:37 
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A bit OTT and in your face but nothing wrong with the principle and the message. I never understand why my fellow 'white guys' get so worked up by things like this. I don't want to live in a world where even on just the commute to work my wife faces more challenges and prejudice on a daily basis than I do for no reason other than she is a woman. If wanting my wife to be able to go about her day the way I do and is treated and respected the way I am makes me a 'snowflake' then... words escape me.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 20:48 
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Stop mansplaining at all of us RCS! Passively conform to everyone's views please, like the entitled person you must be. You don't know what it's like to face the kind of obstacles that would stop you being a president or prime minister.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 21:02 
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Si Robin wrote:
Wow that's bad.


I agree. Personally, I thought chastising an entire group of people based on their skin colour and gender was known as, erm, racism and sexism. Still...I'm not offended, as it's xenophobic tripe, but the irony is delightful. Hopefully all of us 'white guys' will learn to be better people by conforming to MTV's narrow world view.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 21:57 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
Stop mansplaining at all of us RCS! Passively conform to everyone's views please, like the entitled person you must be. You don't know what it's like to face the kind of obstacles that would stop you being a president or prime minister.


Pipe down and check your privilege.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 22:05 
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Retreat to your safe space snowflake. I'm a tri-sexual, gender neutral, mixed race, vegan, muslim atheist...your world views are inferior to mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 22:13 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
Si Robin wrote:
Wow that's bad.


I agree. Personally, I thought chastising an entire group of people based on their skin colour and gender was known as, erm, racism and sexism. Still...I'm not offended, as it's xenophobic tripe, but the irony is delightful. Hopefully all of us 'white guys' will learn to be better people by conforming to MTV's narrow world view.


Interesting question is at what point does one ethnic group become such an oppressive force that to chatise them is fine. To use an extreme example, if at the height of displacing native Americans and then when slavery was a popular norm the natives and slaves said white men were awful, evil and had to change would that be racist or fine?

In a society which is broadly misogynist and discriminatory then the responsibility to change that lies with those with the privilege and power. In my view, those that deny the problem exists or ignore it are just as bad as those deliberately perpetuate the inequality/discrinination and encourage it.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 22:21 
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So is our society BROADLY mysoginist and discriminatory? As in the majority, less the minor detail of a small handful, are misogynistic and discriminatory.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 23:31 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
So is our society BROADLY mysoginist and discriminatory? As in the majority, less the minor detail of a small handful, are misogynistic and discriminatory.


As I said, even if only a minority actively are and actively encourage it. However, only a minority try to change it, which is why there are campaign groups and discussions like this. I would argue that the majority ignore it or pretend it doesn't happen.

For example, I made quite a reasonable statement that I do not like to see people treating my wife like a second class citizen, stupid person or object because she is female. In response to which, rather than agreeing that such discrimination has no place in society and should be called out and challenged you argued against the point.

The fact you argued against it means I must ask what you do think of the fact my wife faces everyday sexism and discrimination in normal situations which I face without having to give a second's thought to. Do you think it is bad and should be challenged? Do you think it is good and you'd like to see more of it? Or have you not given it much thought or consideration?


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 23:34 
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You posted it. I didn't give a c!#p.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 23:40 
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Joking aside, I consider that in any society there will always be instances of discrimination. I'd like people to feel able to challenge it, but equally - I don't think my failure to question it qualifies as being complicit to such behaviour. It's an anacdotal reference that I didn't feel warranted a statement of sympathy/condemnation on my part. Nor, might I add, have I argued against it. I've argued against discrimination by MTV.

I must live quite a sheltered life, I don't know anyone personally that has ever said to me that they feel like a second class citizen. And I know more people than just 'white guys'.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 20 Dec 2016, 23:57 
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Ok. We shall leave it there, as we have gone off topic hugely.

Going back to the OP: analysis suggesting Russia and Turkey may be more united and see further rapproachment as a result of the assassination, rather than lurching closer to conflict. Be interesting to see how it plays out on the ground in Syria.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 21 Dec 2016, 00:04 
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My whole issue, as per this thread, is the labelling of people. If your wife was subjected to sexism - the perpetrator is sexist. Society isn't. If it was tolerated by those in ear shot, they are either sexist themselves or potentially weak minded for not having the strength to challenge it. That doesn't mean society is sexist.

We need to break this unhealthy habit of labelling and name calling vast swathes of the population...as it creates division and barriers.

I'd also add that we need to empower people to speak for themselves so that those who feel they are the victims of prejudice speak up, rather than a self appointed moral guardian taking offence on behalf of all. That is not a reference to you speaking for your wife, as you would clearly know her well enough to comment, but a reference to many a journalist and MP who actively seek to be offended by the most innocuous comments.

Anyway - a good debate. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 21 Dec 2016, 00:18 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ok. We shall leave it there, as we have gone off topic hugely.

Going back to the OP: analysis suggesting Russia and Turkey may be more united and see further rapproachment as a result of the assassination, rather than lurching closer to conflict. Be interesting to see how it plays out on the ground in Syria.


Turkey's continual willingness to turn a blind eye to Russian mob/FSB assassinations in Turkey, seems somewhat pertinent now. Maybe they thought this one was a sanctioned hit so didn't bother to try and stop it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38294204


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 Post subject: Re: Archduke Ferdinand moment of the 21st Century
 Post Posted: 21 Dec 2016, 07:56 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ok. We shall leave it there, as we have gone off topic hugely.

Going back to the OP: analysis suggesting Russia and Turkey may be more united and see further rapproachment as a result of the assassination, rather than lurching closer to conflict. Be interesting to see how it plays out on the ground in Syria.


Turkey's continual willingness to turn a blind eye to Russian mob/FSB assassinations in Turkey, seems somewhat pertinent now. Maybe they thought this one was a sanctioned hit so didn't bother to try and stop it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38294204


Fascinating read. Cheers for sharing. Love stories like this.


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