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 Post subject: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 14:02 
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http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/ne ... ose-574079

I actually cannot believe they're going through with this stupid plan. The roads around Cheltenham are bad enough as it is - where do they think all of the traffic that goes through there every day is going to go? And slowing it down on the other roads isn't going to improve pollution. One step closer to killing the town off, imo. No free parking until after 8pm.

I'm not even going to start on the ridiculous amount of roadworks all around Cheltenham and surrounding areas at the moment and the last couple of months, or the horrendous job that's been done on the resurfacing of Shurdington Road and how on earth it's taken them 3 1/2 weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 14:34 
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As someone who only visits Cheltenham very rarely, I am amazed at the volume of traffic in the town. Cheltenham is not on a through route to anywhere so most of the traffic is local.

A major contributor to the pollution is the number of sets of traffic lights and the time you standing idle waiting fro them to change. I recently drove from the station to the NCP car park by the Brewery. I was stopped at every set of lights. There must be six or seven in this short distance. If they simply phased them so that the traffic flowed it would improve the air quality considerably.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 14:44 
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A plan I have behind for years.

One of the worst urban environment for people using the town centre for it's economic and social purpose: living, shopping, leisure and working.

I imagine all the works and changes to the one way system are part of this, and will require further work to accommodate new routes.

My view on roadworks is that it's best to do it all in one go across an area. Might be a few months of major disruption, but pumping millions into the work and then realising all the local economic benefits in one go is best way to get a step change in productivity.

Red Duke: your point about traffic lights is spot on on that set of road. At least with Boots C being closed, where that road hits Swindon Road will be quieter and less need for lights. I also think they should build a bridge from the NCP Car Park to the Brewery, as the pedestrian crossings cause a lot of the traffic light issues on that road, as you cannot programme to a set phase.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 15:18 
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Always good to hear the views of a couple of infrequent visitors to the town.
A totally illogical experiment which will I agree help kill of the town for locals. They make it all but impossible to park without paying their parking fees then they close off one of the main LOCAL routes. They can't claim it's for safety as I don't think I have ever seen even a near miss at boots corner.
Ipresume this is some relation to the idiots that banned parking near the railway station. It is a busy route because Cheltenham people use it to get across town. Can't think of any other easy way of getting out the evesham road, but I am sure I could add a few extra miles onto my journey


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 15:30 
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I was stopping at the Premier Inn in Henrietta Street and used the NCP car park. I was charged £10.50 to park overnight (£14.00 less 25% discount from Premier Inn!). Another example of being ripped off.

Also I was amazed that it didn't have a small loading/unloading bay outside on Henrietta Street to drop off /pick up at the hotel. Yet another example of very poor planning.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 15:39 
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Welcome to the cheltenham master plan. Stop any free parking, price you out of being able to park near the centre of town. They still have the genius idea of locals using the park and ride. Only in cheltenham
I commute pretty often to birmingham and stop over in cheltenham with the grown up sons. Used to park on queens road and pay the extortionate fare to new street. Then they had the master stroke of stopping pon street parking near the station. Result being, the station car park is full by 7.30. I now take a quick drive up to Worcester shrub hill, park for free on street and pay £7.25 return. Money lost and chelt railway and local shops coffee houses. On my drive back past the rail station the roads are of course empty, nobody but commuters ever parked there.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 16:33 
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Red Duke wrote:
I was stopping at the Premier Inn in Henrietta Street and used the NCP car park. I was charged £10.50 to park overnight (£14.00 less 25% discount from Premier Inn!). Another example of being ripped off.

Also I was amazed that it didn't have a small loading/unloading bay outside on Henrietta Street to drop off /pick up at the hotel. Yet another example of very poor planning.


Ah, you need local knowledge. Family members and I often park on Henrietta Street by the Prem Inn when dropping off/picking up or loading/unloading to the bookshop on the street.

Not in terms of hotels or hospitals, but in general, I have no issue with car parking charges. If a developer invests in a car park in a good location, which is secure and convenient to use then it is only fair they charge 1) to recoup the outlay, 2) to maintain the property, and for private companies 3) to make a profit.

A couple of car parking spaces is the size of a small shop, and cars in urban areas take up vastly more space per head than shoppers or employees. It is a waste of town centre space and land to have free parking, even before pricing in the negative externalities created by traffic.

If people demand investment in and want access to secure, maintained town centre space then of course you should pay for it.

If people don't want to pay then they can park somewhere further away where space is less of a premium and walk in.

If they don't want to walk and don't want to pay, then each individual will have their only value of travel time, degree of price elasticity and personal preferences influencing their propensity to shift mode to something which provides town centre access but with a much more efficient use of space (bicycle, bus, taxi, for eg), fewer externalities and thus no parking cost.

Obviously, this requires a good transport network to operate, something which Cheltenham doesn't have - with no tram/light rail and poor busses. The economics behind this is that due to subsidised car travel (through easy and free/under priced parking) the demand for public transport was low, so private operators had no incentive to invest in new routes and frequent services. Higher parking charges and a road network geared more towards creating a better urban realm may make driving to central locations will increase car travel cost in terms of price (parking) and time (congestion). As these costs increase, the time-cost differential between private car and other modes become more equal, and some people will begin to shift mode. As more people shift to busses, operators are more willing to invest, and the time-cost differential shifts again. Generally, busses have to be a lot cheaper and faster than cars to encourage people to switch mode as they are the least preferred mode. If the Council have a desire, or have to meet targets, on sustainable transport modes and air pollution, then without light rail transit in Cheltenham the only alternative to driving is busses, so the shift in relative cost and time of cars vis a vis busses has to be significant.

Re: pollution and air quality, particulates are very localised. You can get one street which exceeds legal limits constantly, whilst a neighbouring street is constantly well-below legal limits. So even if the air pollution is shifted to another part of the road network, the fact it will no longer be where the highest footfall of people is (Boots C), the health benefits (economic benefits; reduced mortality risk, value of a statistical life, etc) will be significant.

To conclude, in this case, policy makers in Cheltenham are hoping to:

1) remove particulate air pollution from the busiest part of town
2) give more space and priority to people using the urban space rather than those driving through it
3) encourage modal shift to reduce externalities
4) ensure that where modal shift doesn't occur, externalities are internalised and paid for by the car owner


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 18:39 
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Re Local Knowledge - mine is 40 years out of date! Each time I do go, something seems to have changed and the traffic has become worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 18:40 
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Re NCP's, the one at Gloucester Quays is £2 all night overnight, so it definitely seems like a rip-off at £10, but that's their business, I guess. All the street parking, however, is utterly ridiculous. There are barely any roads at all now anywhere near the town where you can park without either a permit or paying extortionate pay and display prices, and those that do have free parking are pretty much all 2 hours, no return for 2 hours. I get the council's idea - put people coming into town by car and they will use public transport. Well, no, people will just go elsewhere or do all their shopping online.

The Boots Corner closure is only a "trial" but I just cannot see how it will work at all. It will be horrendous for anyone living around other routes close to town with all the extra traffic pushed out to them. The traffic won't just disappear - nobody drives into and around Cheltenham for fun during the day as it's bad enough already. When it comes to March 2019 and the Races, Boots Corner and Clarence Parade are chockablock from 10:30am through until 12:30pm, and then again an hour or so before the last race as the schools kick out and all of the buses and taxis are coming back through to collect everyone again. Just where is all that traffic going to go? My boss has already mentioned on more than one occasion that town is becoming irrelevant and we may as well move out to a business park, and I can see quite a lot of non-retail businesses doing that in the next few years as they're cheaper and easier to get to. But then, that's probably what the council want - nothing but restaurants and café's for people attending their beloved festivals, who park in their £20 a day car parks and P&D roads.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 19:31 
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Get a monorail running from Bishop's Cleeve, near Smiths, through the racecourse and old railway line, down to Prince of Wales Stadium, then Waitrose, then the train station, then down the Gloucester Road, GCHQ, Staverton Airport, Golden Valley (ready for a super hospital and parkway station), then somehow through Gloucester incorporating Kingsholm somehow, maybe even down to Quedgeley.

Make it regular, clean and efficient and you have a lot of commuters who would jump on I reckon.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017, 20:27 
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Correct. New frequent light rail would have incredible usage. Especially if it went to Gloucester and linked places like Churchdown to both urban centres. Then the fringes of the two hubs would be much more viable places for commuters to live who didn't want to drive. In ten years I have never driven to work in any of the three urban centres I have worked in apart from one or two occasions to deliver or pick up bulky items.

Shade: you are right re: council priorities. In my last economic development consulting job we did a lot of analysis of the 'evening and night time economy' (ENTE) for local authorities. They were all desperate to know how much employment and gva the ENTE brought to their area and all want to be a regional leader. Plus, Permitted Development Rights legislation introduced in 2013 allows developers and property owners to convert business premises to residential without needing planning permission. Councils can only stop it with an Article 4 directive exemption, which I don't believe Cheltenham applied for. We did a few impact studies for local authorities, mainly in London (Kensington, Westminster, etc) where they didn't want to lose office space as to them large high gva employers are more important than student property or flats where half the owners are offshore and don't pay council tax. And there is so much competition between Boroughs that Westminster do not want to lose business to Camden or the City etc. In Cheltenham however I suspect the Council are happy for Permitted Development to boost the housing supply in central areas. If any midsize firms relocate with resi rents so high viz commercial it is almost nailed on that offices will be converted to flats or student apartments. Which means less building on greenbelt and more people living close to the shops, bars and restaurants you mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 13:32 
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The influx of mass immigration through our open borders has a great affect on all societies needs and that includes road usage.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 15:51 
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Bishops Cleeve is a fine example of where the money would be better spent. They are building all these new homes over the years and still just one road into cheltenham. Laughable, but at least they have stopped us parking


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 16:02 
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confused.com wrote:
Bishops Cleeve is a fine example of where the money would be better spent. They are building all these new homes over the years and still just one road into cheltenham. Laughable, but at least they have stopped us parking


As per ctfc-fan's light rail post above.

In most parts of the country a satellite like Cleeve would have a train/tram/metro into an urban centre like Cheltenham, as it did in the past of course (station closed in 1960), and I am always astonished at how bad transport links are in Gloucestershire.

Shame the track bed was ripped up in places in the 1970s/now used by the GWR heritage, otherwise it would be a no-brainer to re-open what would be a very busy line.

If ever the LEP want to apply for a city-region devolution deal, doing something about transport links must be the priority.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017, 02:27 
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We see the changes in traffic each year when we come back too. Agree with the bridge over to the Brewery from by the Holiday Inn. The traffic along that road is crazy now and i agree about the ridiculous amount of lights. This whole idea for Boots is terrible. The traffic will just keep being pushed into the outer roads blocking still further.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots Corner
 Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017, 14:28 
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Interesting findings from traffic light experiment in Amsterdam.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/amster ... ts-removed


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