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 Post subject: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017, 23:14 
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Soviets labour camps.
Great article and photography.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssion=true

Today's Communist students must be educated on their evil political ideology.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017, 08:29 
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You have obviously been reading too basic history books. Any knowledgeable person knows about the camps.

You are confusing Stalinism, Communism and Socialism. I don't think anyone apart from extreme nutty underground groups supports a Stalin style fascist dictatorship, nor Soviet communism.

The socialism or social-democracy many now support and proposed by Corbyn is centre ground stuff in Denmark and Sweden.

If you are comparing those countries - with better infrastructure, equality and economy than Britain - with Soviet Russia you really have lost it.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 14:35 
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Corbynism

*shudder*


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 16:59 
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Shade wrote:
Corbynism

*shudder*


Interested to hear which precise policies make you shudder and why.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 17:24 
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Can we just list the ones that don't?


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 17:51 
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It was the thought of the man being the leader of this country and having Stalin-esque statues of him erected, that made me shudder.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 18:00 
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confused.com wrote:
Can we just list the ones that don't?


Nope. I hear all this anti-Corbyn rhetoric but never any calm and rational explanation of why Labour policies will be bad for British people.

If you can provide evidence from other social democratic countries of how his policies have damaged society and economy or genuine economic analysis then all the better.

Line by line as per the manifesto.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 19:20 
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Can I start with Venezuela?


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 19:28 
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confused.com wrote:
Can I start with Venezuela?


Nope. As I said, I am after sensible analysis not wild rhetoric and hyperbole. If you think Labour policy is akin to Venezuela you demonstrate you have no understanding of the subject.

Try again.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 20:26 
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Will do when I have a spare minute. Just highlighting the fact I what I will be using as the example country you asked for. I$e$ a social democratic run country following similar ideals


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 20:35 
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confused.com wrote:
Will do when I have a spare minute. Just highlighting the fact I what I will be using as the example country you asked for. I$e$ a social democratic run country following similar ideals


LOL. If you think Venezuela is social democratic (the model in Germany, Sweden, Denmark, etc) rather than an undemocratic self serving corrupt dictatorship then as I say, you demonstrate you have no understanding of the situation.

If you can demonstrate where in Labour's manifesto it says a violent dictatorship to close free press and worship the cult of a dead leader and steal from citizens to line the pockets of dictators who arrest opponents and starve their own people then I will stand corrected.

Now come back when you are happy to talk sensibly about actual policies without parroting hyperbolic rhetoric.

Must say I thought you were informed and intelligent enough to grasp beyond the nonsense "Venezuela" tabloid headlines.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 20:39 
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You can't ask the question and then define what you will accept as socialism! It comes in many guises. If you want to supply a list that conforms to your question then that's a different matter


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 20:58 
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confused.com wrote:
You can't ask the question and then define what you will accept as socialism! It comes in many guises. If you want to supply a list that conforms to your question then that's a different matter


I didn't mention socialism, I said social democracy.

Park Venezuela alongside Zimbabwe, North Korea, USSR, Hitler and all the other extreme dictatorships.

I suppose if you don't know the difference between socialism/communism and social democracy you are just demonstrating you have no understanding.

If you want some examples...New Zealand's government is probably the closest aligned to Labour.

The fact May/Fox are quite keen to trade more with NZ probably suggests they aren't as deplorable as Venezuela?


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 22:33 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
confused.com wrote:
You can't ask the question and then define what you will accept as socialism! It comes in many guises. If you want to supply a list that conforms to your question then that's a different matter


I didn't mention socialism, I said social democracy.

Park Venezuela alongside Zimbabwe, North Korea, USSR, Hitler and all the other extreme dictatorships.

I suppose if you don't know the difference between socialism/communism and social democracy you are just demonstrating you have no understanding.

If you want some examples...New Zealand's government is probably the closest aligned to Labour.

The fact May/Fox are quite keen to trade more with NZ probably suggests they aren't as deplorable as Venezuela?


Why would I want to park Venezula and be confined to your vision of NZ. Venezuela will prove a fine example as to how a social democracy can plough it's field ,plant its policies. Then slowly slide towards autocratic dictatorship as it strives to hang on to power and justify its failures.

Do you not think it is fair to look at the similarities as to where they started out. Before showing the consequences of the policies in implemented ? I think you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge of where the monster has come from :)

Hence Mr C's retisence in condeming him. Instead offering his usual wish washy ' I condem all blah blah blah'

Like I said. When I have a minute to spare will get round to it. If you go back a few years, the current Venezuean gvernment was pretty closely aligned to labour. The debate will be around the journey that those policies brought them on :)


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 22:46 
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confused.com wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
confused.com wrote:
You can't ask the question and then define what you will accept as socialism! It comes in many guises. If you want to supply a list that conforms to your question then that's a different matter


I didn't mention socialism, I said social democracy.

Park Venezuela alongside Zimbabwe, North Korea, USSR, Hitler and all the other extreme dictatorships.

I suppose if you don't know the difference between socialism/communism and social democracy you are just demonstrating you have no understanding.

If you want some examples...New Zealand's government is probably the closest aligned to Labour.

The fact May/Fox are quite keen to trade more with NZ probably suggests they aren't as deplorable as Venezuela?


Why would I want to park Venezula and be confined to your vision of NZ. Venezuela will prove a fine example as to how a social democracy can plough it's field ,plant its policies. Then slowly slide towards autocratic dictatorship as it strives to hang on to power and justify its failures.

Do you not think it is fair to look at the similarities as to where they started out. Before showing the consequences of the policies in implemented ? I think you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge of where the monster has come from :)

Hence Mr C's retisence in condeming him. Instead offering his usual wish washy ' I condem all blah blah blah'

Like I said. When I have a minute to spare will get round to it. If you go back a few years, the current Venezuean gvernment was pretty closely aligned to labour. The debate will be around the journey that those policies brought them on :)


You suggesting our democracy is so ruined it would allow a slide from a slight tweaking of tax and spend to full on extreme dictatorship? We have plenty of checks and balances to stop anything like that happening whether communist or nazi.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 07:30 
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I am suggesting that the uneducated masses can be and have been very easily led by a group of people prepared to throw money at them amd support policies that they have no experience or knowledge of. Where that ends up is in the hands of those masses. I agree that it most probably would not end up like Venezuela in that the violence to stay in power would not exist. However there was a long journey of decline before it got to that. What I am saying is tht what started out as a social democracy with left wing policies, was entertained by the voters as long as they were geting handouts irrespective of the damage that was being done. All you have to to is feed the mob.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 07:54 
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confused.com wrote:
I am suggesting that the uneducated masses can be and have been very easily led by a group of people prepared to throw money at them amd support policies that they have no experience or knowledge of.


We on about Venezuela or Brexit.

Well Denmark hasn't collapsed into failed state dictatorship yet. I guess we can wait ten years and see if Jacinda Ahern starts seizing assets on New Zealand's elite and sends the NZ army out to arrest anyone who campaigns against her. Lol. Does New Zealand's murdering dictatorship make you shudder??

If Britain was already a failed state and Corbyn had previously tries to seize power in coup d'etat promising revolution and huge Bolivaran programmes your comparison may have some relevance. As it is, the historical context of UK viz Venezuela is too different vto compare.

As for uneducated masses - evidence such as this shows that it is the more educated who voted Labour more.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/de ... g-britain/

I suppose people with more economics knowledge, or who take time to study policies have a better understanding of such policies. Whereas the more uneducated just suck up the "Venezuela!" headlines fed them by the Mail/Sun/Express.

Now rather than just barking on about Venezuela, are you actually going to look at and comment on Labour manifesto policies?


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 08:22 
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If you can be more condescending be sure to let me know!


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 08:36 
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confused.com wrote:
If you can be more condescending be sure to let me know!


Hard not to be condescending towards people who show such wilful ignorance and base their argument on tabloid scare stories rather than giving it any thought and analysis themselves!


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 09:14 
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FYI don't read tabloids. As you love NZ so much.
Banking corbyn should be brought closer to gov. And at v least create a gov lending bank.  NZ mostly controlled by foreign banks.
Student fees, corbyn abolish. NZ will try and remove as quickly as possible.
Immigration. Corbyn who knows what he wants. NZ strict visa control.
Hospital care, corbyn free ( as per present). NZ subsidised but not free
Dental care, corbyn free. NZ largely private.
Rail not even worth comparing with NZ dealing with just over 30m passengers and England alone 1.3 billion passengers.
Energy corbyn nationalise NZ private companies
Postal service again no point in comparing due to massive difference of scale


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 09:19 
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The norm in debate is to ask the question and wait/ allow the other person to answer. Not to outline the restrictions around which that answer should be given. Always belive the first sign of being on a losing end is when personal attcaks are the best defence possible. But hey ho you must be stupid and poorly read if you don't think as I think. Hmmmmm


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 10:36 
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NZ - No inheritance tax … Corbyn ? lol
NZ - No Capital gains tax …… Corbyn ? lol
NZ - Max tax rate 33% …….. Corbyn 45% (60% in real terms). But we do know that 95% of us will be paying no income tax !!
NZ - VAT 13% …… Corbyn ? who knows
NZ - Corporation tax 28% and constantly being reduced. Corbyn ? immediate increase from 19 to 26% who know where to after that

Indeed, so closely matched you can hardly tell the difference

Back to my Sun


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 12:21 
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confused.com wrote:
The norm in debate is to ask the question and wait/ allow the other person to answer. Not to outline the restrictions around which that answer should be given. Always belive the first sign of being on a losing end is when personal attcaks are the best defence possible. But hey ho you must be stupid and poorly read if you don't think as I think. Hmmmmm


Re debate norms:

How to solve the housing crisis?
Build on Mars!!
We are talking about the UK.
Don't restrict my debate!!


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 12:40 
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Build in NZ, build in denmark? Or just promise people houses and see how the dice lands


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 13:06 
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confused.com wrote:
Build in NZ, build in denmark? Or just promise people houses and see how the dice lands


Comparing housing policy to those countries would be more relevant than comparing to Mars!


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 13:10 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
confused.com wrote:
Build in NZ, build in denmark? Or just promise people houses and see how the dice lands


Comparing housing policy to those countries would be more relevant than comparing to Mars!


Not unless they had indeed gone down the building on Mars route and it had worked. Or we were going to go down the building on Mars route and they had previously tried and failed.
Then we could use their experiences as a case in point for not building on Mars or to point out the folly of adopting such an approach ?

Then again maybe not. Your game, your rules :)


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 14:27 
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I think if I was in a housing policy meeting with DCLG next week and banged on about Mars I wouldn't be long in the meeting or in my job. Much more likely to be taken out in a straight jacket than taken seriously.

Happy for you to live in your own world where there are houses on Mars, but I prefer reality.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 15:35 
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Sorry that you can't see the logic in the argument, be it on Mars or anywhere else.
When faced with the reality of NZ you went quiet on that one. So presumed so your reference to Mars was an attempt to shift to a more esoteric debate. Obviously not. You actually meant building house on Mars. How bizzare


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 15:50 
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confused.com wrote:
Sorry that you can't see the logic in the argument, be it on Mars or anywhere else.
When faced with the reality of NZ you went quiet on that one. So presumed so your reference to Mars was an attempt to shift to a more esoteric debate. Obviously not. You actually meant building house on Mars. How bizzare


Will address the NZ points when I have time to sit down, digest and research - so outside of work hours and probs on weekend.

Re Mars, I did indeed mean actual Mars, making the point that talking about Mars in a debate about UK housing is as nonsensical and irrelevant as talking about Venezuela in a debate about UK politics. Ergo, it is perfectly logical to put boundaries on a discussion, despite your claim I was making up rules.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 17:07 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
confused.com wrote:
Will address the NZ points when I have time to sit down, digest and research - so outside of work hours and probs on weekend.


Why break the habit of a lifetime.


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 Post subject: Re: What the history books never tell you.
 Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 20:00 
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Circa 1887 wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
confused.com wrote:
Will address the NZ points when I have time to sit down, digest and research - so outside of work hours and probs on weekend.


Why break the habit of a lifetime.


Au Contraire. Pretty much all of my posts are snuck in whilst the kettle boils, nipping to the loo, grabbing lunch etc so are made with no thought or research, just firing off stuff from my head or as I read something brief.


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