Other side of the planning officer coin.

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ctfc-fan
Posts: 1884
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:Or those that now would take longer to get to their required shop(s) won’t be arsed and will just buy online causing more decline of the high street.
I know right - observed data and statistics obviously not as accurate as what you’re dogma thinks should happen.

People are going to increase online shopping anyway. This is why the high street has to offer an environment which is a nice place to be and spend time.

Who wants to go shopping on a narrow pavement waiting ages to cross a zebra crossing breathing in particulates when you can shop online. But places to sit out drinking coffee etc, in an expansive car free zone, smart benches with free WiFi, interactive displays pushing snap deals and offers, trees, planters and green walls - making at a place to enjoy rather than places just to shop. Places who don’t adapt will die, and it is their own fault.
And roads with hot tubs and s#!t fake grass thrown down in a hurry but with delivery lorries and buses still allowed to hurtle through...
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29759
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
ctfc-fan wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:Or those that now would take longer to get to their required shop(s) won’t be arsed and will just buy online causing more decline of the high street.
I know right - observed data and statistics obviously not as accurate as what you’re dogma thinks should happen.

People are going to increase online shopping anyway. This is why the high street has to offer an environment which is a nice place to be and spend time.

Who wants to go shopping on a narrow pavement waiting ages to cross a zebra crossing breathing in particulates when you can shop online. But places to sit out drinking coffee etc, in an expansive car free zone, smart benches with free WiFi, interactive displays pushing snap deals and offers, trees, planters and green walls - making at a place to enjoy rather than places just to shop. Places who don’t adapt will die, and it is their own fault.
And roads with hot tubs and s#!t fake grass thrown down in a hurry but with delivery lorries and buses still allowed to hurtle through...
Yes, the failure is it is a half-baked job. Compromising to the bus companies etc and doing something that suits no one.

Newcastle has a very similar situation, with a street through the heart of the central area linking radial routes / one way system, dissecting two main shopping streets / pedestrian areas.

This is bus and taxi only and the controversy has been widening the ‘bus and taxi only area’.

Interestingly this summer they trialled closing the central road completely on weekends, pedestrianising the road temporarily for two days. So no buses or delivery vehicles could hurtle through. Monitoring data of traffic speed and numbers, air pollution, noise and pedestrian movements all collected by the university’s funky ‘Urban Observatory’ and their network of sensors which show live data on maps, so we’ll wait and see what the data show.

Bus companies can make or break these things - here they object to any road being pedestrianised or blocked off even if not on a bus route and threaten legal action. So the city wide data collection during the trial will be able to show whether the bus companies’ concerns are correct or not.

I doubt Cheltenham’s data will be anywhere near as comprehensive as Newcastle’s which is world leading, so I suspect there will be little conclusive evidence from the trial.
theidlerich
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Joined: 03 Dec 2009, 09:22
Location: Cotswolds
The on-line commercial industry needs to be fairly taxed. But can't see this shambles of a Government doing that anytime soon [too many fingers in the corporate pie]; further all "white vans" should be excessively taxed and their company logo or whatever clearly signed on their sides; they are a lethal pest on narrow roads and country lanes! Workers rights in these modern days 'workhouses' [eg amazon etc..] need to be significantly strengthened. Oh...and that Ashly bloke needs to be banned from owning any business....Q Why do people, especially sports fans add to his salary and pension plan?
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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theidlerich wrote:The on-line commercial industry needs to be fairly taxed. But can't see this shambles of a Government doing that anytime soon [too many fingers in the corporate pie]; further all "white vans" should be excessively taxed and their company logo or whatever clearly signed on their sides; they are a lethal pest on narrow roads and country lanes! Workers rights in these modern days 'workhouses' [eg amazon etc..] need to be significantly strengthened. Oh...and that Ashly bloke needs to be banned from owning any business....Q Why do people, especially sports fans add to his salary and pension plan?
I know who to get a giant Sports Direct mug for this Christmas then.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1884
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
theidlerich wrote:The on-line commercial industry needs to be fairly taxed. But can't see this shambles of a Government doing that anytime soon [too many fingers in the corporate pie]; further all "white vans" should be excessively taxed and their company logo or whatever clearly signed on their sides; they are a lethal pest on narrow roads and country lanes! Workers rights in these modern days 'workhouses' [eg amazon etc..] need to be significantly strengthened. Oh...and that Ashly bloke needs to be banned from owning any business....Q Why do people, especially sports fans add to his salary and pension plan?
Agree with everything apart from the white van tax increase, not all of us are bad.

Mike Ashley I definitely agree with. I’d like him to answer one question.... he is feeling landlords they should let him use their properties rent free but will he be taking any money from the business in personal pay? If so then he’s got no f&£king right to expect that or publicly slate the landlords. I say they should all refuse and leave him with no business.
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Shade
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Location: Cheltenhamshire
Going back to the roads, they've just finished having Shurdington Road resurfaced between the roundabout for Up Hatherley Way up to the Moorend Road traffic lights. I assume they fiddled with the timing on the lights for when the road was closed at night but forgot to change them back, as I used to maybe have to queue through one change, four or five cars max, in the morning, but now I'm queuing anywhere from the Warden Hill turning back every morning, and I don't go in rush hour so it must be pretty bad then. More pollution from idling cars in a residential area.

When I used to drive in to Cheltenham in rush hour, 12 or so years ago, it would take around 45 minutes every day for what would be a 15 minute journey (4 miles) any other time of the day. I don't know how long it would take today and I have very little interest in finding out.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1884
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
Shade wrote:Going back to the roads, they've just finished having Shurdington Road resurfaced between the roundabout for Up Hatherley Way up to the Moorend Road traffic lights. I assume they fiddled with the timing on the lights for when the road was closed at night but forgot to change them back, as I used to maybe have to queue through one change, four or five cars max, in the morning, but now I'm queuing anywhere from the Warden Hill turning back every morning, and I don't go in rush hour so it must be pretty bad then. More pollution from idling cars in a residential area.

When I used to drive in to Cheltenham in rush hour, 12 or so years ago, it would take around 45 minutes every day for what would be a 15 minute journey (4 miles) any other time of the day. I don't know how long it would take today and I have very little interest in finding out.
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks they’ve changed the timings of the lights. Bloody awful now but normally go via Hatherley Road and The Park anyway which is so much quicker.
theidlerich
Posts: 1782
Joined: 03 Dec 2009, 09:22
Location: Cotswolds
To ctfc-fan ...."Agree with everything apart from the white van tax increase, not all of us are bad." Yes - my apologies - I should have specifically targeted delivery vans from the on-line parcel business [from Amazon etc..], which is one of the main reasons our town centre shops are going out of business [plus excess rates too..]. Further locally we have had a number of attempted and actual burglaries - all seemingly in 'white vans'! Perhaps genuine tradesman should adopt a different coloured van? There's a thought..
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Shade
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Location: Cheltenhamshire
ctfc-fan wrote:
Shade wrote:Going back to the roads, they've just finished having Shurdington Road resurfaced between the roundabout for Up Hatherley Way up to the Moorend Road traffic lights. I assume they fiddled with the timing on the lights for when the road was closed at night but forgot to change them back, as I used to maybe have to queue through one change, four or five cars max, in the morning, but now I'm queuing anywhere from the Warden Hill turning back every morning, and I don't go in rush hour so it must be pretty bad then. More pollution from idling cars in a residential area.

When I used to drive in to Cheltenham in rush hour, 12 or so years ago, it would take around 45 minutes every day for what would be a 15 minute journey (4 miles) any other time of the day. I don't know how long it would take today and I have very little interest in finding out.
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks they’ve changed the timings of the lights. Bloody awful now but normally go via Hatherley Road and The Park anyway which is so much quicker.
Due to the Boots Corner changes I find myself having to go further and further west as I go into town in order to get to where I need to go, instead of just straight up into town. So, rather than take several left turns at varying stages, I may well start just turning left at Hatherley roundabout, go past Bournside, across Lansdown and down Bayshill Road.

What a palava.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29759
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Deliberately making that so is a policy in many cities around Europe Shade.

The classic example is closing through routes, so to cross the town in a straight line by bike or foot might be 2 miles (12 or 15min) but cars have to do a much longer circular route - say 5 or ten miles.

The aim of course is so that those are able to cycle or walk, leaving the roads for buses and those who need to drive due to distance.

The old saying to those moaning about congestion - you aren’t stuck in traffic you are traffic!
Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 20 Nov 2018, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1884
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
Shade wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:
Shade wrote:Going back to the roads, they've just finished having Shurdington Road resurfaced between the roundabout for Up Hatherley Way up to the Moorend Road traffic lights. I assume they fiddled with the timing on the lights for when the road was closed at night but forgot to change them back, as I used to maybe have to queue through one change, four or five cars max, in the morning, but now I'm queuing anywhere from the Warden Hill turning back every morning, and I don't go in rush hour so it must be pretty bad then. More pollution from idling cars in a residential area.

When I used to drive in to Cheltenham in rush hour, 12 or so years ago, it would take around 45 minutes every day for what would be a 15 minute journey (4 miles) any other time of the day. I don't know how long it would take today and I have very little interest in finding out.
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks they’ve changed the timings of the lights. Bloody awful now but normally go via Hatherley Road and The Park anyway which is so much quicker.
Due to the Boots Corner changes I find myself having to go further and further west as I go into town in order to get to where I need to go, instead of just straight up into town. So, rather than take several left turns at varying stages, I may well start just turning left at Hatherley roundabout, go past Bournside, across Lansdown and down Bayshill Road.

What a palava.
Yes it’s not good however I’m sure when the high street is dead the councillors will revise their stupid decision. Not.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Lol. Good job all actual evidence suggests the high street won’t die then.

Interesting vision from the FT here, who always have business and growth at heart: https://www.ft.com/content/371c3bee-971 ... 1e803ee64e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Achieving anything like it will require creative thinking by businesses and government”

As evidenced by gripes on here, such thinking is a long way off for some. At least the Council are trying something, and hopefully revisions over the coming years means the vision is fulfilled.

Obviously most planning today is for a future of lower car ownership (ownership levels dropping annually in towns and cities) and the growth of Mobility as a Service (MaaS). If anyone is ignorant of the latter, I recommend reading about it as that is the direction of urban mobility and U.K. policy and planning is adjusting to cater for that and not private cars so will have a demonstrable impact on the places where we live.
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Shade
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We're not all subscribers of the FT, RCS. What actual evidence suggests high streets won't die? From what I've seen, many around the country are dying and on their last legs, consisting of nothing but the likes of betting shops, coffee shops and charity shops.

Creative thinking is fine. It's the way they're going about it that's wrong. As you've said yourself. They can't/shouldn't just close the centre of town off and force all the traffic onto small residential roads. The roads literally can't cope as they're falling apart already and it's increasing pollution in residential areas. They should have sorted that plan out before doing anything with Boots Corner, in my, and a lot of others, opinion. The main trouble is they're trying to turn a town and traditional High Street into something that it wasn't originally made for. High Street's have always been places where a lot of people travel to because that's where a lot of shops/businesses are gathered, right back to horse and cart times - which is what a lot were built to take. Now they're trying to evolve that when they'd probably be better off building a new town centre that can cater to all of the modern needs in a different location and turning the current one into mass housing... Obviously, I know nobody can afford that.
ctfc-fan
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Cheltenham Town Centre will be mainly old people housing soon anyway with no shops...
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Shade
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Location: Cheltenhamshire
ctfc-fan wrote:Cheltenham Town Centre will be mainly old people housing soon anyway with no shops...
That's true. Pegasus Life are determined to make it so.

Re the lights on Shurdington Road/Moorend Road, I think they've switched the day and night timings, as coming back from the game last night I was sat there for ages waiting to turn onto Shurdington Rd. It was holding much, much longer than in the mornings, and nothing was going through.
Red Duke
Posts: 1991
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 09:15
Location: North West
Shade wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:Cheltenham Town Centre will be mainly old people housing soon anyway with no shops...
That's true. Pegasus Life are determined to make it so.

Re the lights on Shurdington Road/Moorend Road, I think they've switched the day and night timings, as coming back from the game last night I was sat there for ages waiting to turn onto Shurdington Rd. It was holding much, much longer than in the mornings, and nothing was going through.
What is it with Cheltenham and traffic lights? Why don't they install "smart" traffic lights that depending on the flow, the phasing is altered. Where I use to live in the North East, there was a roundabout where A19 / A189 crossed. Before the lights installed, there were constant delays. After the installation of the smart lights, there were just short queues even at rush hour.

By dosing the same, it would cut emissions significantly and improve the traffic flow.
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Shade
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Location: Cheltenhamshire
As far as I know, the only smart lights in the area are on the new Elmbridge Court roundabout at the other end of the Golden Valley. But it would probably help considerably.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Shade wrote:We're not all subscribers of the FT, RCS. What actual evidence suggests high streets won't die? From what I've seen, many around the country are dying and on their last legs, consisting of nothing but the likes of betting shops, coffee shops and charity shops.

Creative thinking is fine. It's the way they're going about it that's wrong. As you've said yourself. They can't/shouldn't just close the centre of town off and force all the traffic onto small residential roads. The roads literally can't cope as they're falling apart already and it's increasing pollution in residential areas. They should have sorted that plan out before doing anything with Boots Corner, in my, and a lot of others, opinion. The main trouble is they're trying to turn a town and traditional High Street into something that it wasn't originally made for. High Street's have always been places where a lot of people travel to because that's where a lot of shops/businesses are gathered, right back to horse and cart times - which is what a lot were built to take. Now they're trying to evolve that when they'd probably be better off building a new town centre that can cater to all of the modern needs in a different location and turning the current one into mass housing... Obviously, I know nobody can afford that.
That’s the crux. Retail has shifted online and the role of town centres have been irreversibly changed. There will be a lot more focus on food and drink, leisure and social and high quality shopping experiences and things like charity shops and independents. Big names are going to be more selective.

Plenty of evidence that quality of place enhances footfall. I will find some more accessible links and share them. The London examples linked to in this thread are one of many.

Quality spaces make locations more attractive to businesses. The type of small but high paying finance, legal, digital businesses Cheltenham has for example choose to locate near places where employees can shop and eat in nice and high end environments.

There is a definite drive to increasing residential use in town centres. Using up units whilst creating a footfall and customer base.

Cheltenham is a little unique in being a destination in itself rather than predominantly a commuter towns. Commuter towns are going to see their central areas near stations converted to resi, with high streets taking on more of an evening and weekend role - where again the quality of space is important if you want people to spend their free time there.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29759
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Red Duke wrote:
Shade wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote:Cheltenham Town Centre will be mainly old people housing soon anyway with no shops...
That's true. Pegasus Life are determined to make it so.

Re the lights on Shurdington Road/Moorend Road, I think they've switched the day and night timings, as coming back from the game last night I was sat there for ages waiting to turn onto Shurdington Rd. It was holding much, much longer than in the mornings, and nothing was going through.
What is it with Cheltenham and traffic lights? Why don't they install "smart" traffic lights that depending on the flow, the phasing is altered. Where I use to live in the North East, there was a roundabout where A19 / A189 crossed. Before the lights installed, there were constant delays. After the installation of the smart lights, there were just short queues even at rush hour.

By dosing the same, it would cut emissions significantly and improve the traffic flow.
Cost and vision, and contractual reasons. Moor Farm roundabout which you describe was part of the wider procurement of Siemens who run the Tyne and Wear traffic light system. Smarter lights would have been specified in the contract for any new installations. Plus the region is quie forward thinking in that regard. Two main routes into the city centre have lights connected to buses by LoWran so as the buses approach they change. There is a smart parking app for the city so when you drive in it directs you the most efficient route to the car park with the most vacancies, and the Urban Traffic Management and Control centre collects live data and can change traffic light settings and digital signs in response to traffic flows.

I suspect that Cheltenham/Gloucestershire councils don’t even know half this tech exists, wouldn’t know the best way to procure and deploy it and are probably locked into long term contacts with someone like Siemens or Dyniq which doesn’t allow for other suppliers or innovation to be utilised - a situation too many local authorities got themselves in to through poor procurement.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29759
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Talking of Mike Ashley earlier in this thread: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rts-direct" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1884
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:Talking of Mike Ashley earlier in this thread: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rts-direct" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tell him this:

1, When SD are behaving totally within the law, then come and see us.
2, As you decided you’d choose when you came to see us, we’ll choose when you can come to us this time.
3, Before you start spouting off about ‘greedy’ landlords, what money will you be taking from the business (HoF)?
4, If the landlords are so ‘greedy’, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and buy the buildings too, along with all the maintenance and other overheads that go with them?

Answer to No. 4 is he wouldn’t as he couldn’t afford to and wants an easy way out of it ever fails again and doesn’t want the costs and hassle of owning these large buildings across the country.
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