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Ihearye
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Yes Skills and productivity, especially if the cost of developing those skills is being invested in by the EU and zero cost to the company. Productivity ? When deciding to lift a production plant and moving it overseas. Not sure how you can say at that point in time, that productivity will improve. It can do if atomisation is increased and again especially if that is being invested in by EU grants. Made available if the production plant is moved, but not at the home base.

Your Nissan discussion, seems to undermine your argument. You declare that the Czech, ‘is getting more competitive by the year’. This would lead me to believe that the initial decision was (as I have argued above), that the decision to locate in the Czech manufacturing arena, was not based on Productivity. I would be pretty certain, that hefty EU grants helped this decision. EU grants which gave helped develop a pan manufacturer automobile plant.

Your view on coders and welders etc, would seem to imply that there are no unemployed coders or welders in the UK (of a suitable standard for industry). I personally no this to be wrong. I know of at least 16 coders that I used to employ, that are still job hunting 5 months on. This is not due to their lack of skills. The skills are present in the UK. Maybe not 100% of requirements, This is where a controlled immigration regime comes into place. You can’t argue re skills shortage which can be catered for and baristas that is not filling a skills gap. The best example of the madness of it all, shows itself in what appears to be a lady of Romanian descent, with no English language skills, selling The Big issue outside W H smiths on Hight Street. Why ?
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Malabus
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Location: The Death Star.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:I see how this is going to play out now. May loses vote. Says she will plough on with no deal. Corbyn tables no confidence motion in Government. Conservatives like Soubry, Allen, Grieve, Clarke, Boles and many more vote with Labour to bring down government and call a general election and delay Article 50. May, Hammond, Rudd and the Remainers in Cabinet relieved to have a) delayed leaving and b) handed over the chaos to someone else. If Labour win the election then Corbyn pleased to deliver Brexit and try and negotiate a Labour Deal whilst Brexiters in Tory party can blame Labour for either delaying leaving or getting a bad deal.
How is Corbyn going to deliver Brexit? How will he get a real Brexit [Leave means leave] legislation through parliament? The leader and labour have given no indication how they will tackle the snakes in Brussels?
These are the questions we must asked.
Also you can forget another referendum as that will have to be approved with majority vote in parliament.
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Ihearye
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Any solution that delivers any form of Brexit, be that Norway, Canada +, will, according to the EU. Mean we have to sign up to the backstop. As there has been seen, the backstop is a major reason for her defeat. So Mr Corbyn would need to solve that one
Andy
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IF, and I doubt it will, todays vote results in another general election, parties need to have the balls to set out in their manifesto what they are going to do regarding Brexit and the way forward. Then we will see who wins a majority...LOL.

Trouble we have is that there are divisions within the parties as well and all that is happening is the UK is becoming a laughing stock to the rest of the world.

Words such as “brewery, p155 up, arrange a, cant” are probably being mentioned in various different languages about the UK at the moment.




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asl
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The Leave campaign mentioned none of the issues faced, that I recall. Apparently, "the EU needs us more than we need them."

I do have some sympathy for May, however. As a comment on Facebook said last night: "if we choose to jump out of a plane without taking a parachute, it's a bit harsh to blame one person for failing to come up with an acceptable landing strategy."
Red Duke
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Location: North West
Ihearye wrote:
Red Duke wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:Taking jobs is incorrect and using that argument covers up local policy failings.

As you know I live in the North East. The only region who makes enough stuff to have net exports.

I must have interviewed over 50 manufacturing, tech, digital and pharma companies over last few years.

The overwhelming challenge they face? High skilled recruitment. USA, India and EU are the biggest sources of skilled employees such as engineers or lab scientists. Only in coding is a U.K. born pipeline coming through.

This is a region with high unemployment and three universities. It is an utter failure of national policy that the U.K. is creating great high value added jobs through great science and innovation, but very few in the U.K. have the skills to take these roles. If companies like GSK or JLR could not hire immigrants, the roles wouldn’t be filled by locals, the roles would be created in other counties - until we are producing skilled workers in our education system. (But that requires long term planning, listening to business, not chopping and changing education system based on ideology etc etc and requires young people to have inspiration and aspiration to work hard, not to doss about and want something for nothing).
I agree that our Education System does not produce enough people with the right skills. To me, the teaching profession should hang its head in shame. It is fundamentally ludicrous that kids can leave school who can't read, can't write and can't add up.

What is the percentage of illiterate people in jail? It is bound to be a lot higher than the national average. How many people are in debt because they have no idea how to manage money? It has lead to real problems with Universal Credit and non-payment of rent for people who do not have the skills to control their spending.

The education system is solely designed for benefit of what Universities want and not for the education of pupils. For example, no University place should be given based on predicted results. They should wait until the results are known before offering places.

Most Teachers have been in Education since they were 5. They have no other life experience other than education. I would have it that no teacher should be employed unless they have at least two years of working within other walks of life.
And you don't think parents and role models have an awful lot to do with that ?
parents, who don't care if their kids go to school or not?
parents , who never spend a minute with their kids in the evening, going through their school day?
parents who set the example to their kids that anti social behaviour and lack of respect is OK?
parents who absolve themseleves of any responsibility in their childrens education, yet dont assist those who they are handing over that responsibility to?
parents, who never turn up at a parents night to see how their children are doing, or hear what help they may need.
parents who seem oblivious to the socially and educationally inept children they are bringing up.
parents, who never turn up to see their children actually doing something positive in school. Be it in the choir, playing for a team, in a play etc etc
THESE are the kids leaving school with poor attainment. You seriously think any self respecting teacher, could not help a responsive, socially engaged kid, not to read or write? In this days of constant monitoring, they would soon be called out and be out. Parts of our society is broken and they have broken it themsleves
So education system has to be changed to cope with the situation you have described. To carry on the way we are at the moment will never solve the problem. If you carry on doing exactly the same, the results are going to be the same.
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Ihearye
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It has changed :-
Pupil premiums paid to school to give these puoils more 1 to 1 sessions. That they walk out of
Special Units set up to deliver extra english and maths lessons, which they dont turn up for
Revision lessons during holidays (unpaid), which they dont turn up for
People emplyed by schools, only job is to daily go round houses trying to get pupils to attend school. Is this not the parents job?
Pupils being accepted into 6th form, just to get them past english and matchs gcse level!
More and more resources being ploughed into this area from the schools to try and fix the original problems you highlighted. All being done ar=t the expense of pupils who are socially engaged. Whose parents do believe in being role models. Nothing to do with money, class. It is to do with having pride in yourself and knowing what is right and what is wrong.
Did your school give up so much time and money, trying to coax pupils to firstly come to school and then to stay in it and finally actually want to learn something. Horse and water springs to mind
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Ihearye
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asl wrote:The Leave campaign mentioned none of the issues faced, that I recall. Apparently, "the EU needs us more than we need them."

I do have some sympathy for May, however. As a comment on Facebook said last night: "if we choose to jump out of a plane without taking a parachute, it's a bit harsh to blame one person for failing to come up with an acceptable landing strategy."
indeed, why did nobody borrow your crystal ball to have foresight of the EU;s negotiating positions
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Malabus wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:I see how this is going to play out now. May loses vote. Says she will plough on with no deal. Corbyn tables no confidence motion in Government. Conservatives like Soubry, Allen, Grieve, Clarke, Boles and many more vote with Labour to bring down government and call a general election and delay Article 50. May, Hammond, Rudd and the Remainers in Cabinet relieved to have a) delayed leaving and b) handed over the chaos to someone else. If Labour win the election then Corbyn pleased to deliver Brexit and try and negotiate a Labour Deal whilst Brexiters in Tory party can blame Labour for either delaying leaving or getting a bad deal.
How is Corbyn going to deliver Brexit? How will he get a real Brexit [Leave means leave] legislation through parliament? The leader and labour have given no indication how they will tackle the snakes in Brussels?
These are the questions we must asked.
Also you can forget another referendum as that will have to be approved with majority vote in parliament.
I have some sympathy with Corbyn and do think that Keir Starmer (class above most politicians) to negotiate a different deal. Key points explain why I think this:

- The likes of Fox, Mogg, etc view Brexit as an opportunity to get rid of human rights, environmental legislation and standards the EU have legislated. The EU know this. The last thing the EU wants is the U.K. to lower standards in the U.K. and start importing stuff from countries with lower standards. So the EU play hard ball.

- However, Labour are advocates of better standards and I believe the EU will be more lenient because rather than being fearful of U.K. taking a backward step, they can look forward to Britain being a leader and an example for the EU to aspire to. I think the EU may even give up the Backstop or change it significantly. For example, if U.K. farming has better welfare standards, or British products better environmental standards then the EU will be happy for these to flow across an open border. What they don’t want is a Mogg inspired slashing of animal welfare and environmental legislation leading to U.K. flooding EU with lower standard goods - hence the current insistence on Backstop and NI aligning with customs union.

- And, Labour manifesto for 2017 General Election was a customs union and alignment with the single market. And the election result was a hung parliament, Labour having over 40% of the popular vote and a 9.6% swing (vs 5.5% for Conservatives). So there is genuine mandate form the electorate to support the Labour stance.

Mrs May keeps saying 80% of voters in 2017 voted for parties backing Brexit. Well, half of those 80% voted for one who pledged to align with a customs union, single market and to protect or enhance standards.
asl
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:half of those 80% voted for one who pledged to align with a customs union, single market and to protect or enhance standards.
I don't see how that constitutes 'leaving'?

We've made our bed and now need to learn to sleep in it, however uncomfortable it may be.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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asl wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:half of those 80% voted for one who pledged to align with a customs union, single market and to protect or enhance standards.
I don't see how that constitutes 'leaving'?

We've made our bed and now need to learn to sleep in it, however uncomfortable it may be.
Depends what you mean by leaving. Some may say leaving but keeping free trade and ensuring our standards are just as good or better is leaving, some may not. But when you have a vote based on a concept rather a plan: everyone has their own idea of what leaving is so you can’t please many people.
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Ihearye
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Sorry to say RCS – incorrect. The labour manifesto is not as you portray and thus your extrapolations are unicorns

Labour manifesto speaks of a Customs Union arrangement. A different customs Union. Not the existing one.
Single Market – what exactly dos alignment mean? It certainly does not mean, being in the Single Market. Because, the same manifesto speaks of immigration controls. Which would be impossible without staying in the single market.
These two points then lead on to the ubiquitous backstop. The manifesto declares that there will be no hard border between ROI and NI. How is this to be achieved if a) we are not in the existing CU (and the EU have shown no appetite to develop a different CU membership for the UK) and b) if we are out of the single market. How is that circle to be squared? Unless of course you align with the views of the EU that “losing Northern Ireland is the price the UK would pay for Brexit”

International trading agreements (ex EU) – labour manifesto talks of having the ability to strike deals with trading partners, outside of the EU.

None of the manifesto lends itself to your summary. They are not looking for membership of a CU, but rather, a type of CU. That allows them to explore trade deals outside of the EU.
They may be looking for ‘alignment’ with the single market. However, they are not looking to be in the single market. They want control over immigration.
They don’t want a hard border (nobody does, indeed the only person who speaks of one is poor LV), yet their stance in the CU and single market, means there has to be one unless they have an alternative?
Red Duke
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Location: North West
Ihearye wrote:It has changed :-
Pupil premiums paid to school to give these puoils more 1 to 1 sessions. That they walk out of
Special Units set up to deliver extra english and maths lessons, which they dont turn up for
Revision lessons during holidays (unpaid), which they dont turn up for
People emplyed by schools, only job is to daily go round houses trying to get pupils to attend school. Is this not the parents job?
Pupils being accepted into 6th form, just to get them past english and matchs gcse level!
More and more resources being ploughed into this area from the schools to try and fix the original problems you highlighted. All being done ar=t the expense of pupils who are socially engaged. Whose parents do believe in being role models. Nothing to do with money, class. It is to do with having pride in yourself and knowing what is right and what is wrong.
Did your school give up so much time and money, trying to coax pupils to firstly come to school and then to stay in it and finally actually want to learn something. Horse and water springs to mind
What has happened to this generation of parents? My approach and that of previous generations was aspire to have a better start in life for their children than they did through having a good education.

When did this come to end? Is it because everybody has been put into stereotypical boxes and that upward mobility has been stopped? Is it because of too much state intervention by successive governments trying to control every aspect of people's lives?
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Ihearye wrote:Sorry to say RCS – incorrect. The labour manifesto is not as you portray and thus your extrapolations are unicorns

Labour manifesto speaks of a Customs Union arrangement. A different customs Union. Not the existing one.
Single Market – what exactly dos alignment mean? It certainly does not mean, being in the Single Market. Because, the same manifesto speaks of immigration controls. Which would be impossible without staying in the single market.
These two points then lead on to the ubiquitous backstop. The manifesto declares that there will be no hard border between ROI and NI. How is this to be achieved if a) we are not in the existing CU (and the EU have shown no appetite to develop a different CU membership for the UK) and b) if we are out of the single market. How is that circle to be squared? Unless of course you align with the views of the EU that “losing Northern Ireland is the price the UK would pay for Brexit”

International trading agreements (ex EU) – labour manifesto talks of having the ability to strike deals with trading partners, outside of the EU.

None of the manifesto lends itself to your summary. They are not looking for membership of a CU, but rather, a type of CU. That allows them to explore trade deals outside of the EU.
They may be looking for ‘alignment’ with the single market. However, they are not looking to be in the single market. They want control over immigration.
They don’t want a hard border (nobody does, indeed the only person who speaks of one is poor LV), yet their stance in the CU and single market, means there has to be one unless they have an alternative?
Sigh.

I said ‘a’ customs union throughout most of my posts - barring one or two mistakes. Turkey is in a customs union with the EU. But it is not a member of the EU and is free to make unilateral trade deals with other countries.

Alignment is quite simple. We make a free trade agreement and agree to not undercut or operate at different standards. Same if we made a deal with New Zealand to import lamb we wouldn’t expect them to agree to high animal welfare but without us aligning our welfare standards to be the same. Or we wouldn’t expect BMW to make cars for the EU meeting EU emissions targets but to make more polluting ones for us in the U.K.

Tariff and standards alignment underpin pretty much every free trade agreement going. And where alignment or other terms are broken people can take the case to the WTO to arbitrate.

As for the manifesto. Have you read it or just read the Mail/Express summary: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... gle-market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That’s what half of the so called 80% Brexit supporting voters at the General Election voted for. May’s words, not mine.
Andy
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Ok. So who had 17 days?

This is the “How long..” thread for the sweepstake on how long before RCS goes over the three posts a day isn’t it??

Oops sorry was that a private thread....

LOL


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RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Andy wrote:Ok. So who had 17 days?

This is the “How long..” thread for the sweepstake on how long before RCS goes over the three posts a day isn’t it??

Oops sorry was that a private thread....

LOL


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Marathon not a sprint. Check the numbers at the end of the year.
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Ihearye
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As it happens yes I have read the Maifesto, hence my ability tp question your statement. In so far as to explain why the elctorate did not vote for anything different. Conservatives are quite happy to get a kind of customs union as long as it doesnt mean being in THE customs union and the rukes that apply to that. Labour the same. The conservatives seem more than happy to agree to standards etc to keep them as close as possib;e ro the single market standards, so as to achieve frictionless trade of the same standrads. That is despite you thinking they want different. You thinking it does not make it a reality.
So by your understanding Labour voters voted to leave the CU. Labour voters voted to leave the single market. Labour voters voted to stop free movement. Not sure about the backstop, but you seem to believe that because it is not TM Ireland and EU will give up teh above and say dont worry about the border ?
Have actually got lost in what your original point was. Oh yes, the above three facts are so divorced from waht the other 40% voted for, that they couldn't be counted as wanting the same thing. l.e. leaving EU, leaving the current CU, leaving the single market and stopping free movement. If you take the time to rerad the manifesto you will understand. I would cut and paste the relevant sections, but I fear it would be a waste of time.
If only MrsMay knew that by agreeing to better animal welfarere and environmental controls, that Leo would be saying, hey dont woory about that backstop! Nonsense. There is no free movement of livestock between NI and ROL as it is, even when we are in the EU. you should drop #10 and D4 a line. They have missed that easy solution..........
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Ihearye
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Red Duke wrote:
Ihearye wrote:It has changed :-
Pupil premiums paid to school to give these puoils more 1 to 1 sessions. That they walk out of
Special Units set up to deliver extra english and maths lessons, which they dont turn up for
Revision lessons during holidays (unpaid), which they dont turn up for
People emplyed by schools, only job is to daily go round houses trying to get pupils to attend school. Is this not the parents job?
Pupils being accepted into 6th form, just to get them past english and matchs gcse level!
More and more resources being ploughed into this area from the schools to try and fix the original problems you highlighted. All being done ar=t the expense of pupils who are socially engaged. Whose parents do believe in being role models. Nothing to do with money, class. It is to do with having pride in yourself and knowing what is right and what is wrong.
Did your school give up so much time and money, trying to coax pupils to firstly come to school and then to stay in it and finally actually want to learn something. Horse and water springs to mind
What has happened to this generation of parents? My approach and that of previous generations was aspire to have a better start in life for their children than they did through having a good education.

When did this come to end? Is it because everybody has been put into stereotypical boxes and that upward mobility has been stopped? Is it because of too much state intervention by successive governments trying to control every aspect of people's lives?

All good questions. Being on the board of a local Sec School, my heart sinks
Johnsons Red Army
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'Plan B' being announced from the Commons around 15:30pm.

Rumour has it that 'Plan B' is just going to be same deal minus the backstop. Like the EU is going to agree to that if they didn't the first time!!! :roll:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Lol, David Davis at Davos today...saying one way to make the Backstop redundant is make it UK law that to sell to the EU UK businesses have to meet EU standards and legislation! So straight out of the Corbyn ‘alignment with Single Market’ handbook.

Meanwhile Rees-Mogg doing his bit to ensure the sovereignty of our Parliament, by suggesting May close Parliament for three days next week.

Rees-Mogg of course who has moved some of his business to Ireland, alongside Farrage who has made sure to get German (EU) passports for his kids, plus Lawson, Dyson, etc. Nice of Farrage to ensure his kids can travel around EU to work and study without borders but insisting that kids in less privileged families can’t. And Rees-Mogg moving his finance business to Ireland but telling the local factory workers in the UK that short term job losses will be for the greater good.

Talk about a stitch up by the elites! If ever politics was hi-jacked by elites to further line their own pockets, Brexit is the best example!
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Ihearye
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I am amazed you actually came out with that RM moving his business to Ireland line. Would have thought you would have understood the world of funds / Investments?
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Ihearye wrote:I am amazed you actually came out with that RM moving his business to Ireland line. Would have thought you would have understood the world of funds / Investments?
I do, so interesting he sees the need to move their.
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Ihearye
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ihearye wrote:I am amazed you actually came out with that RM moving his business to Ireland line. Would have thought you would have understood the world of funds / Investments?
I do, so interesting he sees the need to move their.
So you believe that fund managers across the UK, do not set up funds in many many countries which have different legislation to ours, hence reducing costs, charges etc, on managing funds?
That is a not the case, fund managers set up funds in a wide diversity of countries and legislations. What they do NOT do, is move their offices or organisations to these countries. They merely set up funds in them. You seemed to imply that creating a fund in country A, entails actually setting up an office or moving resources to a different country? If that is not what you meant then I apologise. For I am sure we both understand, that setting up a fund in country A, implies nothing of the sort.


I hope that the fund managers and administrators who look after my pension pot, have my funds in the cheapest country in which to operate those funds. The fact that they are sitting in their office in Birmingham and have no office in these other parts of the world, is the point I felt was being lost on you.
Likewise, to the best of my knowledge, the Fund management firm you are associating RM to, only have offices in UK and Singapore(?)
Johnsons Red Army
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12:40 Theresa May's spokesperson says she has told EU leaders she intends to re-open Brexit negotiations to get her deal through parliament.

Let's see how long it takes the EU to shoot down this idea. Surely before the end of the day would be my best guess!
Johnsons Red Army
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20:48
EU rejects call for renegotiating withdrawal agreement


Faisal Islam
@faisalislam
Replying to @faisalislam
Tusk spokesman EUCO coordinated statement:

“Withdrawal agreement is and remains best and only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU. The backstop is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, and the Withdrawal Agreement is not open for re-negotiation. “


Well that was pretty obvious :roll: .
Johnsons Red Army
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https://news.sky.com/story/government-t ... t-11634661" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another example of what a p!##-poor job this government is doing about Brexit.

"Two years ago, the International Trade Secretary Liam Fox said that updated versions of all those treaties should be ready to sign within a minute of Britain leaving the EU.

Now, according to senior government sources, expectations have been tempered.

Instead of aiming to renegotiate all the treaties, the government is focusing on securing those deals that are worth most to the British economy.

It is understood that the target is now to have deals in place that would cover "around 90%" of British trade within the existing agreements."


What an absolute clown that guy is. Not the first thing he's said pre-referendum that turned out to be a load of bollox (like a lot of the Leave camp!).
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Ihearye
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JRA, if only you had voted in the referendum! You really should have taken that opportunity
Johnsons Red Army
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I voted, thank you!
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Ihearye
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Oh right, you were out voted then? Best just accept democracy and move on. Either that or we could discuss losing to Tamworth or very general election every week :)
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Ihearye wrote:Oh right, you were out voted then? Best just accept democracy and move on. Either that or we could discuss losing to Tamworth or very general election every week :)
Although of course with the FA Cup the team get a chance to make amends the following year and a General Election the maximum wait for people to have another vote to either re-affirm or change their decision.

If you are such a fan of democracy, now we know the options are May’s Deal or WTO, why not put that to a People’s Vote to give a clear mandate to Parliament who otherwise can’t agree?
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Ihearye
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Ihearye wrote:Oh right, you were out voted then? Best just accept democracy and move on. Either that or we could discuss losing to Tamworth or very general election every week :)
Although of course with the FA Cup the team get a chance to make amends the following year and a General Election the maximum wait for people to have another vote to either re-affirm or change their decision.

If you are such a fan of democracy, now we know the options are May’s Deal or WTO, why not put that to a People’s Vote to give a clear mandate to Parliament who otherwise can’t agree?
Great fan of democracy, Parliament overwhelmingly gave us the option of entrusting them to leave EU or not. The UK decided to give them the task of leaving. Then Parliamnet overwhelmingly actioned A52. That is when we hand control over to the government and tell them to do the best job they can.
We don't run this country by referenda, we give Goverment the power and they govern. That is what is happening now. Plenty goes on in Government that I and I dare say others, don't agree with, however, would not expect them to come back to me to validate their approach.
If Parliament can not agree, then we get what they did vote for when the actioned A52. it's a simple as that surely
Has to be said, after watcfhing Inside Europe over the last few weeks. Any illusion of solidarity or the freater good can be taken with a pinch of salt. It is more than obvious, they are quite happy to throw anyone under the bus, as long as Germany and France get their way
Johnsons Red Army
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Ihearye wrote:Oh right, you were out voted then? Best just accept democracy and move on. Either that or we could discuss losing to Tamworth or very general election every week :)
How is that at all relevant to my post about Liam Fox (whether I voted or not)?


https://news.sky.com/story/rollover-of- ... s-11636491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Further updated today:

"The international trade secretary defended his performance after reports that only six out of 40 of the agreements are expected to be rolled over in time for Brexit."


Quite a contrast from his claim that:

"We're going to replicate the 40 EU free trade agreements that exist before we leave the European Union so we've got no disruption of trade," Fox told a Conservative party fringe event in Manchester.

"I hear people saying 'oh we won't have any [free trade agreements] before we leave'. Well believe me we'll have up to 40 ready for one second after midnight in March 2019," he told cheering Tory activists.


I stand by my earlier statement, what a fkn clown!
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Tune in to Channel 4 later to see how the elite behind Brexit have already made millions out of it and will make any more if they get a No Deal: https://mobile.twitter.com/C4Dispatches ... 7768417280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shame that the likes of Mal who are in awe of these elites are the ones going to suffer the most!
Johnsons Red Army
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Thanks!

I firmly believe no deal is going to be taken off the table this week, once May's deal is finally killed off tomorrow, however will still tune in.
Red Duke
Posts: 1991
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 09:15
Location: North West
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:Tune in to Channel 4 later to see how the elite behind Brexit have already made millions out of it and will make any more if they get a No Deal: https://mobile.twitter.com/C4Dispatches ... 7768417280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shame that the likes of Mal who are in awe of these elites are the ones going to suffer the most!
It has always been the same. The whole system is designed for the poor to get slightly better off (to ensure that they will vote for the governing elite) and for the rich to become extremely wealthy while pretending to care for the less well off.

This is shown by favouring indirect rather than direct taxation. Who remembers when VAT was first introduced? I believe it was 5% and income tax was 33p (with a max of 98p) . Now it is 20% and 20p with a max of 45p.

The spin comes from the elite that you paying less tax so you have more money in your pocket, conveniently forgetting that the high rate of VAT on the price of goods. Putting the money in one pocket while pulling it back from you without you noticing.

Hence, the poorest spend more of their income on the tax in percentage terms than the richest.
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