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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:03 
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Alf wrote:
The career of a footballer is short term compared to other jobs and players, in many cases, have to consider their families welfare and future not the loyalty to the fans and the club. How would the punters feel if the price of season tickets and turnstile prices went up to ensure certain players stayed at the club? Would the fans loyalty extend to forking out more cash? I doubt it, so why criticise a player for wishing to improve his financial situation.


My argument is that whilst he may earn more in the next year or two, by making a move which I believe will result in him dropping down the leagues rather than rising up them, come 5 years he will be earning less than if he stayed with us and progressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:08 
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Players only stay with a club - including Cheltenham it may surprise some - because it suits them. The vast majority leave because they're told to. The few that leave because they're wanted elsewhere leave because it suits them.

All this loyalty is a load of nonsense - it doesn't exist even among those that apparently bleed something other than blood.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:20 
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Wasn't that what Steve Evans and Boston got done for, paying huge sign on fees instead of wages?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:25 
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Shade wrote:
Wasn't that what Steve Evans and Boston got done for, paying huge sign on fees instead of wages?


My understanding was more they were not paying tax on those payments or along those lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:36 
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Robin wrote:
Shade wrote:
Wasn't that what Steve Evans and Boston got done for, paying huge sign on fees instead of wages?


My understanding was more they were not paying tax on those payments or along those lines.
I believe you're right. It was tax evasion.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:48 
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Always appeared to give his all, a decent enough player i thought. Its his career and a short one at that, so i dont blame him one bit in going for a much higher salary. Just like every one in here would. The thing is no one in here even says if they move jobs, winchesters is thrown all over the place in the media. Mony grabber certainly not, sensible financial move best of luck winnie


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 13:51 
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Just read Winchester's "message to the fans". Going through the motions almost as much as he was in the last few games he played.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 14:31 
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Robin wrote:
The rules can be easily bent though, they simply compare the wage bill versus revenue don't include transfer fees, signing on and certain bonuses. This is how clubs like Chelsea, PSG, Man City, Man Utd, Real Madrid get round it and I believe same applies to FGR.



You are correct in saying rules can easily be bent.

Under the SCMP (Salary Cost Management Protocol) rules that underpin Financial Fair Play rules for League’s 1 & 2, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important, as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of Turnover:

Match-day Income
Commercial Income (such as sponsorship)
TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position)

One of the main sponsors of FGR is of course Ecotricity. A careful investigation of how such alleged ‘Signing On Fees’ are obtained and accounted for, would settle any dispute regarding whether these so called Fees were part of ‘Turnover’.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 16:03 
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Now it has actually been confirmed: http://bit.ly/WinchesterMove


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 16:22 
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I like how cooper had to throw in this-

"and for him it is purely about the ambition of Forest Green Rovers and where we want to go."

Ahahaha. money grabber. I can accept everyone else's view on him moving due to a short career but it doesn't cut it for me personally. Hope he gets an awful reception on his return :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 16:36 
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money talks but maybe he got fed up playing right back


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 16:40 
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Rulistening wrote:
I like how cooper had to throw in this-

"and for him it is purely about the ambition of Forest Green Rovers and where we want to go."

Ahahaha. money grabber. I can accept everyone else's view on him moving due to a short career but it doesn't cut it for me personally. Hope he gets an awful reception on his return :mrgreen:


The quote from Cooper is the biggest pile of uncondensed testicles I’ve read in many a year.

Winchester will be their stand out player next season. He will stand out-side the dressing room when he doesn’t make the team, and stand out-side Greggs when he’s gagging for a bacon sarnie, like some of his predecessors at FGR. He’s had his mind poisoned and now they’re going to poison his stomach with that raw field vegan muck, too. By the start of the new season he will be able to ‘spit’ through the eye of a needle ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 16:55 
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Steve Bull told Manchester United to bugger off, that’s loyalty.
Today football player, like everybody else are motivated by money rather than a quality of life, respect and loyalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 17:15 
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Quality of life and respect ? hmm


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 19:34 
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Personally wish Winchester all the best [he'll need it at FGR!]. Perhaps in an ideal world we should have insisted on his moving to a club outside a 50 mile radius of Cheltenham; that would have put the cat amongst the pigeons.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 20:21 
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Lord Elpuz wrote:
Rulistening wrote:
I like how cooper had to throw in this-

"and for him it is purely about the ambition of Forest Green Rovers and where we want to go."

Ahahaha. money grabber. I can accept everyone else's view on him moving due to a short career but it doesn't cut it for me personally. Hope he gets an awful reception on his return :mrgreen:


The quote from Cooper is the biggest pile of uncondensed testicles I’ve read in many a year.

Winchester will be their stand out player next season. He will stand out-side the dressing room when he doesn’t make the team, and stand out-side Greggs when he’s gagging for a bacon sarnie, like some of his predecessors at FGR. He’s had his mind poisoned and now they’re going to poison his stomach with that raw field vegan muck, too. By the start of the new season he will be able to ‘spit’ through the eye of a needle ;)


Cooper is a poor coach. Nearly all players who go there get less fit and player more slowly. Winchester was on the cusp of being too fat and slow to be a pro footballer but he noticeably leaned up over the time we had him. Maybe I noticed it more due to having more time between games rather than watching every week. That is testament to the style of player Gary likes: lean and strong. If he swells up under Cooper then that will be his league career over until he sorts himself out. Can’t wait to see him lumbering around WR bouncing off Ben Tozer like a ball of lard.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 20:48 
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Tedious historical rewriting of history. He was taken to the cleaners against Coventry because he was at bloody right-back again (which you suspect was not his choice, & some 'professionals' would have kicked off about that, he didn't). Centre mid he was often very,very good. Just because he has now left does not make this not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 21:03 
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Good news is that it is a major pay packet freed up


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 21:33 
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Good luck to him I say. We'd all do the same in similar circumstances.
Maybe another season muddling along in the bottom third being continually played out of position made the choice an easy one to make.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 22:29 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Alf wrote:
The career of a footballer is short term compared to other jobs and players, in many cases, have to consider their families welfare and future not the loyalty to the fans and the club. How would the punters feel if the price of season tickets and turnstile prices went up to ensure certain players stayed at the club? Would the fans loyalty extend to forking out more cash? I doubt it, so why criticise a player for wishing to improve his financial situation.


My argument is that whilst he may earn more in the next year or two, by making a move which I believe will result in him dropping down the leagues rather than rising up them, come 5 years he will be earning less than if he stayed with us and progressed.


Your argument is based on an unsubstantiated statement that you’ve pulled out of thin air.
That he will be on a better wage is fact. No one knows for certain what the future holds for any of us. Your argument suggests that FGR will go down the pan and that we will progress handsomely. This is a personal whim and certainly not one on which I would want to base my financial future. Footballers in the lower leagues cannot be expected to play the loyalty card, they can’t play until they’re sixty five. I’m sure in the same position we would do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 31 May 2018, 22:34 
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Alf wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Alf wrote:
The career of a footballer is short term compared to other jobs and players, in many cases, have to consider their families welfare and future not the loyalty to the fans and the club. How would the punters feel if the price of season tickets and turnstile prices went up to ensure certain players stayed at the club? Would the fans loyalty extend to forking out more cash? I doubt it, so why criticise a player for wishing to improve his financial situation.


My argument is that whilst he may earn more in the next year or two, by making a move which I believe will result in him dropping down the leagues rather than rising up them, come 5 years he will be earning less than if he stayed with us and progressed.


Your argument is based on an unsubstantiated statement that you’ve pulled out of thin air.
That he will be on a better wage is fact. No one knows for certain what the future holds for any of us. Your argument suggests that FGR will go down the pan and that we will progress handsomely. This is a personal whim and certainly not one on which I would want to base my financial future. Footballers in the lower leagues cannot be expected to play the loyalty card, they can’t play until they’re sixty five. I’m sure in the same position we would do the same.


My argument makes no assertions about FGR. They may march to the Championship in five years and we may go to Southern League. Purely saying that Winchester’s physique and fitness has improved noticeably under Gary’s stewardship (and he would likely continue to improve) whereas observations of FGR suggests the reverse will be the case and he’ll regress over the next year or so, even if FGR progress and get promoted.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 08:26 
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Lord Elpuz wrote:

The rules are also to prevent “financial doping” where rich owners can pump in vast sums in fees and wages totally unrelated to real income to gain an edge on their rivals.

Bottom line is that FGR are £Millions in debt.


Are they? Really?
A loss making subsidary of a profitable company is not necessarily in debt
And what, exactly is written in the Fair Play rules that you mention? When at least three quarters of the clubs in the division are taking a subsidy from one place or another (and we have done in the past), are you translating your feeling that what FGR is doing should be against the rules, into a rant that they are?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 11:55 
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From what I hear the signing off fee Winchester received is larger than the current CTFC transfer fee paid for a player, that tells you what you need to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 12:21 
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Robin wrote:
From what I hear the signing off fee Winchester received is larger than the current CTFC transfer fee paid for a player, that tells you what you need to know.


Maybe I’ll start a campaign by Ecotricity customers saying we expected our bills to be used to invest in renewable energy and not to subsidise lavish spending on a loss making football team.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 13:02 
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leohoenig wrote:
Lord Elpuz wrote:

The rules are also to prevent “financial doping” where rich owners can pump in vast sums in fees and wages totally unrelated to real income to gain an edge on their rivals.

Bottom line is that FGR are £Millions in debt.


Are they? Really?
A loss making subsidary of a profitable company is not necessarily in debt
And what, exactly is written in the Fair Play rules that you mention? When at least three quarters of the clubs in the division are taking a subsidy from one place or another (and we have done in the past), are you translating your feeling that what FGR is doing should be against the rules, into a rant that they are?


I’m sure most readers of this Forum are aware that without the vast sums pumped into FGR by Mr Vince, they would be bankrupt along the lines of Rushden & Diamonds. That makes them in debt, at the very least to Mr Vince. The acid test is what sort of attractive going concern would they be, should Mr Vince go elsewhere?

I think the FFP rules are understood by everyone, just not adequately applied or policed properly. In the case of Winchester, it is alleged that he has been given a vast signing on fee, and my question is that it would be nice to see how that fee has gone through the FGR accounting process?

It makes a mockery of the salary rules if a signing on fee is at such a massive level that it makes up for the lack of competitive wage, when in fact all that is really happening here is that FGR allegedly appear to be paying the salary in a lump-sum advance in lieu of a wage.

To spell out the spirit of the rules, they were intended to prevent clubs from spending money they didn’t have in order to safeguard against bankruptcy, but it also goes beyond that by trying to discourage other clubs from being forced to compete against the financial wheeler dealings of similar sized clubs which are viewed by the FFP rules as setting a bad example in terms of escalating the problem.

If you regard my interpretations as a rant, so be it; it’s a Forum and I am entitled to give an opinion, to stir debate and to encourage people to question the ethics and to try and ascertain some facts regarding the manner in which one of our assets has been tempted into a sideways move at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 14:35 
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Old Turn Coat has found a free alternative to Viagra. He’s really getting off with the Winchester saga, even quoting big chunks from our Forum :lol:

It’s amazing that at his age, he can still raise a smile ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 15:31 
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Fail to see what all the discussion is about
He is a L2 player
Doesn't want to be at CTFC
So get rid of the bad apples and build better.
Even #7 seems to be a suitable replacement. (not too sure why I said even)


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 15:33 
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edit - after reading JG comments, he will fill that gap very nicely


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 18:37 
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Some posters seem to spend more time talking about FGR than they do CTFC. Can’t understand the obsession with Dale Vince and his finances. Can’t be envy can it? Surely not. I don’t give a flying f#!$ about what they do.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 18:50 
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Alf wrote:
Some posters seem to spend more time talking about FGR than they do CTFC. Can’t understand the obsession with Dale Vince and his finances. Can’t be envy can it? Surely not. I don’t give a flying f#!$ about what they do.


No of course, fans of football are stupid to be frustrated about poor ethics, unsustainable finances and the general destabilising of the game.

If we ever go bust due to ever growing costs, we can rest assured we did our bit to stay silent and never question the destruction of the national game.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester move confirmed.
 Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 19:43 
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Alf wrote:
Some posters seem to spend more time talking about FGR than they do CTFC. Can’t understand the obsession with Dale Vince and his finances. Can’t be envy can it? Surely not. I don’t give a flying f#!$ about what they do.


Whatever happened to free speech in this country?

Comments about FGR are surely valid, given the particular topic?

Perhaps
“Carl Winchester has now decided to join an unnamed Gloucestershire Football League 2 club, and no one knows or gives a damn about the terms of the deal”
is more palatable?


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