Finally some policy from UKIP

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ools-taxes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... paign=1490" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Joey]

Daily Mail readers are getting a little bit excited in the comments.

Grammar schools damage social mobility, it would be a backwards step to re-introduce them. Tax cuts for the rich......yes....Nigel the man of the working class.....haha.

[asl]

Grammar schools damage social mobility

Really? Never did me any harm...

Surely, the wealthy will send their kids to fee-paying schools, that are able to attract the best teachers and have smaller classes so generally produce better results than the masses who attend regular schools? How on Earth that aids social mobility is beyond me...

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I benefited from a grammar school education where learning was encouraged and you could do lots of studying and want to learn without being bullied or mocked for it. I am sure I would not have got the university degrees I have had I not gone to Pates.

But, the main criticism is - if Pates and STR cream off the best students in Gloucestershire, then pupils at the remaining schools will get left behind and consigned to a low aspiration education meaning that the clever/aspirational kids who didn't quite get into Grammar schools have less mobility as they get held back.

Of course the answer is for other non-Grammar schools to rise up standards, and reverse the trend for pupils to think learning isn't cool and pick on kids who are clever and aspiring to getting an education. But having no Grammars would make it easier - say IF Pates and STR were shut and 250 pupils each year went to other state schools in the county then there may be a critical mass of aspirational pupils/families at each school to bring other kids into the fold and out of the clutches of the bullies/popularity obsessed kids who would rather muck about and who don't want to learn.

[Joey]

Grammar schools damage social mobility

Really? Never did me any harm...

Surely, the wealthy will send their kids to fee-paying schools, that are able to attract the best teachers and have smaller classes so generally produce better results than the masses who attend regular schools? How on Earth that aids social mobility is beyond me...

A grammar school isn't a regular school?

Association of school and college leaders did a study into how schools affect social mobility, here's a bit on how Grammar schools tend to lock out the poorer members of our society:

An explanation for the very low representation of disadvantaged children in grammar schools in the present day is that, as social inequality has increased in recent decades, social and financial capital enables middle-class parents to find ways to access the most advantageous schools, and as a result, disadvantaged pupils are under-represented at selective schools (and at other good schools) (Cassen & Kingdon, 2007). For example, it is now standard practice for pupils to practise intensively for the ‘11-plus’ and similar exams necessary for access to selective schools (The Telegraph, 2012c). Many families secure individual tutors or paid-for after-school classes to prepare for these tests (The Telegraph, 2011, 2012c). Clearly, not all families can afford to pay for such expensive practices, nor are necessarily able to help with revision and preparation at home. To suggest that the outcome of such practices is a simple reflection of ‘natural ability’ or talent is clearly wrong. What is being tested is a) diligence and b) available financial and social resources.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Grammar schools damage social mobility

Really? Never did me any harm...

Surely, the wealthy will send their kids to fee-paying schools, that are able to attract the best teachers and have smaller classes so generally produce better results than the masses who attend regular schools? How on Earth that aids social mobility is beyond me...

A grammar school isn't a regular school?

Association of school and college leaders did a study into how schools affect social mobility, here's a bit on how Grammar schools tend to lock out the poorer members of our society:

An explanation for the very low representation of disadvantaged children in grammar schools in the present day is that, as social inequality has increased in recent decades, social and financial capital enables middle-class parents to find ways to access the most advantageous schools, and as a result, disadvantaged pupils are under-represented at selective schools (and at other good schools) (Cassen & Kingdon, 2007). For example, it is now standard practice for pupils to practise intensively for the ‘11-plus’ and similar exams necessary for access to selective schools (The Telegraph, 2012c). Many families secure individual tutors or paid-for after-school classes to prepare for these tests (The Telegraph, 2011, 2012c). Clearly, not all families can afford to pay for such expensive practices, nor are necessarily able to help with revision and preparation at home. To suggest that the outcome of such practices is a simple reflection of ‘natural ability’ or talent is clearly wrong. What is being tested is a) diligence and b) available financial and social resources.

Quite - being raised by a young single mother I was fortunate enough to get a bursary to a private primary school where we had a whole year of practising for the Pates exam. Without that stroke of luck at age four I would have had much less opportunity to do what I have done - and recognition of this fact is why I am a proponent of raising education and standards across the board and bringing a bit more fairness into our economic system whereby more people have the opportunity for life to be more than being a zero-hours slave for a few elites with nothing to look forward to other than Friday night happy hour.

[asl]

I agree that the best way is for all schools to be ranked as 'fantastic' so it doesn't matter which school you go to - but, in the real world, that's never going to happen. On that basis, why should parents not provide whatever advantages they can to their children? I don't mean lying about their address, religion, etc - but private tuition? Sure, why not? The more intelligent kids we have in this country, the better. They're the leaders, thinkers, scientists, teachers and engineers of the future: let's drag the standards *up*, not down.

[asl]

By the way, I'm the son of a coalman who bust his guts all his life for a pittance a week, and was brought up in a council house in a Lincolnshire village. I passed the 11+ (no coaching nor private tuition for me) and became only the second pupil from my village school to go to the local grammar (the other being the headmaster's son) in 20 years.

Hard work has got me to where I am, now. Too many kids nowadays have a dream only of winning X-Factor or marrying a footballer and forget that they need to break their balls with some proper hard work and study.

[Malabus]

Wonderful policies.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

By the way, I'm the son of a coalman who bust his guts all his life for a pittance a week, and was brought up in a council house in a Lincolnshire village. I passed the 11+ (no coaching nor private tuition for me) and became only the second pupil from my village school to go to the local grammar (the other being the headmaster's son) in 20 years.

Hard work has got me to where I am, now. Too many kids nowadays have a dream only of winning X-Factor or marrying a footballer and forget that they need to break their balls with some proper hard work and study.

That is what I like about Grammar schools - that they are a chance to do what you have done.

And yes, the aspirations and dreams of children (and their parents these days) is the biggest problem in my opinion. As soon as you have 25 kids in a class-room who are actively against learning and think an iPhone will drop into your hands if you get drunk every day and are more interested in trainers, fake eye lashes and porn than they are on basic knowledge then the 5 kids who actually want to learn and achieve are screwed. BUT...some argue with no Grammar schools you'd have 15 kids in a class who want to learn to redress the balance. I don't necessarily agree as it's the catchment area of the school which has the biggest influence on the attitude of it's pupils.

A bloody difficult situation to solve because it gets worse with each generation as the kids who don't care grow up to be parents which don't care. Only way to solve it is to abolish catchment areas and distribute people from all over a town to different schools so there is an equal range of demographics in each - then rather than having one school in a rich area full of kids desperate to be lawyers and medics and one in another area full of kids desperate to be on the x-factor and go binge drinking as they know nothing different, you'd have half in one and half in an other and some kids from the latter group will be inspired by the former, as well as the benefits of just being in their company and talking to them and seeing other ways of life.

Also, the ruling elite in my opinion don't want to solve the situation - our economy relies on cheap labour and people buying things they don't need. We need a steady stream of people with no qualifications who believe everything magazines tell them for the system to work!

[Joey]

I agree that the best way is for all schools to be ranked as 'fantastic' so it doesn't matter which school you go to - but, in the real world, that's never going to happen. On that basis, why should parents not provide whatever advantages they can to their children? I don't mean lying about their address, religion, etc - but private tuition? Sure, why not? The more intelligent kids we have in this country, the better. They're the leaders, thinkers, scientists, teachers and engineers of the future: let's drag the standards *up*, not down.

I've no issue with private tuition, I've had it myself. My issue is that from the moment children start school, in most cases their chances of success are altered. Hence why so many of the elite are privately educated, when was the last time you saw somebody doing a blue collar job who was privately educated? There is a Berlin Wall in our society of those who go to state schools those who go to public/private schools. 70% of FTSE chiefs, top journalists and high court judges attended public school but only 7% of the population do so. We need to create a school system that attempts to create an equal opportunity for everyone. I understand there will always be outside factors out of the schools control, the system we have now stifles social mobility to the point where our social mobility is one of the worst in the OECD nations.

[Malabus]

Ban school....did feck all for me and it was boring. All taught knowledge is generally false, especially history.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

That explains your constant confusion and contradiction then Mal.

[Malabus]

That explains your constant confusion and contradiction then Mal.

"CONSTANT" ... evidence please.

[Sentence removed by moderator. Mal - that oversteps the line: removing that comment in case anyone decides to expand on something that, frankly, is a crime in several European countries. Leave that one alone, please. asl]

[Red Duke]

It is not about grammar or comprehensive. It is about the ethos of school. When my children reached secondary school age, we had a choice of three local comprehensives. One was run like a grammar school where they were expected to succeed and other two were run like secondary moderns where if they wanted to, they could succeed.

They went to the former and achieved better A level results and subsequently a better degree than me.

So it is nothing to do with having different types of schools.

It is more importat that they sort out the existing education system rather than polarising it into us and them. I think it shocking that so many kids leave school today can't read, can't write and can't add up.

Anybody who is education today, should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen.