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 Post subject: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 15:42 
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Thanks to Mr Johnson we find ourselves ridiculously looking over our shoulder, and with no game today, hoping and praying the teams below, and just above us all lose.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:32 
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Whilst I do agree with the decision to sack him I do not put the blame entirely down to him. The board and Milton also take some responsibility here.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:39 
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Not sure why you think Milton should take some blame,.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:42 
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Who signed a number of garbage players that we are lumbered with until January?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:48 
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In fairness, Milton managed our only two league wins of the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:51 
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Robin wrote:
Whilst I do agree with the decision to sack him I do not put the blame entirely down to him. The board and Milton also take some responsibility here.


Save your energy Robin - those who blame Johnson exclusively won’t change. Some like Nesty didn’t even like him during the Champions season.

The rest of us have moved on, but we must humour their obsession.

Was it the Board or Johnson who allowed Mo to leave? That short-term decision was always going to be the most damaging to our prospects and whoever sanctioned that is culpable.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:32 
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Robin wrote:
Whilst I do agree with the decision to sack him I do not put the blame entirely down to him. The board and Milton also take some responsibility here.


Save your energy Robin - those who blame Johnson exclusively won’t change. Some like Nesty didn’t even like him during the Champions season.

The rest of us have moved on, but we must humour their obsession.

Was it the Board or Johnson who allowed Mo to leave? That short-term decision was always going to be the most damaging to our prospects and whoever sanctioned that is culpable.


Utter tosh, I was behind him for 2 and a half season's


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:37 
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A sad state of affairs, A) Somebody bottled it upstairs and allowed him to continue as manager and B) Some of these players were signed with no plan in place of where to put them (Tozer) in particular. How he was allowed to stay on as manager after what he did the last two seasons was beyond me, I've never known a club so soft as us and not only that we consistently make poor decisions on and off the pitch it's no wonder we have hardly any fans anymore, 5/6 seasons have been bad, we needed a clean sweep in the summer and like normal we didn't get it, most fans could see we needed change but somebody has bottled it upstairs, I have never known a football club get it so wrong, I swear it is only us. Let's hope Duff can keep us going, in a way if we went down it won't be his fault as he's not had a full summer to get players in only a January window, we need to get it right in January once again or we will dropping down again.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:45 
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Nesty wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Robin wrote:
Whilst I do agree with the decision to sack him I do not put the blame entirely down to him. The board and Milton also take some responsibility here.


Save your energy Robin - those who blame Johnson exclusively won’t change. Some like Nesty didn’t even like him during the Champions season.

The rest of us have moved on, but we must humour their obsession.

Was it the Board or Johnson who allowed Mo to leave? That short-term decision was always going to be the most damaging to our prospects and whoever sanctioned that is culpable.


Utter tosh, I was behind him for 2 and a half season's


Apologies. I recall that some of the usual moaners disliked Gary from day one, but must have misremembered thinking you were one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:54 
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BakeR's EXit was as painful as our Prime Ministers is, it took too long and by the time the new man was officially handed the reins the chuckle brothers had signed a load of garbage, and we had lost our strike force, our two best midfielders amidst rumours of them and other players having had fall outs with GJ, and no salt required


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 12:45 
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Robin wrote:
Whilst I do agree with the decision to sack him I do not put the blame entirely down to him. The board and Milton also take some responsibility here.
I agree Robin. to much blame has been put on GJ. The coaching staff should have gone as well. still playing the same old c!#p football. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 12:47 
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Nesty wrote:
Not sure why you think Milton should take some blame,.
He's the coach. That's why. And why was he allowed to sign some of the players?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:03 
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Rick wrote:
Nesty wrote:
Not sure why you think Milton should take some blame,.
He's the coach. That's why. And why was he allowed to sign some of the players?


Probably because Johnson had yet again done such an awful job in the summer we needed to do something. In three league games he got two wins - that's 2pts per game when in more than a hundred games Johnson averaged little more than a point. But of course the Johnson fan club will blame anyone else.

It's a shame those who wanted Johnson given even more time are now unable to afford Mike Duff the same time to sort the mess out. He's certainly going to need it and it's going to take more than one season.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:28 
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Del Boy wrote:
Rick wrote:
Nesty wrote:
Not sure why you think Milton should take some blame,.
He's the coach. That's why. And why was he allowed to sign some of the players?


Probably because Johnson had yet again done such an awful job in the summer we needed to do something. In three league games he got two wins - that's 2pts per game when in more than a hundred games Johnson averaged little more than a point. But of course the Johnson fan club will blame anyone else.

It's a shame those who wanted Johnson given even more time are now unable to afford Mike Duff the same time to sort the mess out. He's certainly going to need it and it's going to take more than one season.


of course, but all I want MD to do this season is keep us up, that will be an amazing achievement in itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:34 
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Nesty wrote:

of course, but all I want MD to do this season is keep us up, that will be an amazing achievement in itself.


Yes, quite.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 18:30 
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Good too see that, after a week away, the same old debates are still simmering.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 18:39 
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It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 18:43 
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Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


You think we've self-harmed?? How's that??


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 19:04 
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Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


Surely you mean stupid demands from the unelected morons in Brussels.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 20:10 
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Del Boy wrote:
Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


You think we've self-harmed?? How's that??


Have you seen the last few games, we've unquestionably gone from bad to worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 20:12 
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joes dad wrote:
Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


Surely you mean stupid demands from the unelected morons in Brussels.


Yes if you believe the political elite nut jobs who are looking to make quick money off the rest of us but that's another story.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 20:42 
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Robin wrote:
Del Boy wrote:
Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


You think we've self-harmed?? How's that??


Have you seen the last few games, we've unquestionably gone from bad to worse.


You expected instant improvement?? I certainly didn't. Personally I think we're in a better position than we were two months ago. At least now we've got some strikers who look like scoring rather than playing a centre-half/defensive midfielder as a striker after making him one of the main signings of the summer without a clue how to use him. We also seem to be trying to sort out the mess Johnson made of signing heaps of players in the summer and still having a completely lop-sided squad.

And this is just what sums up Johnson's happy clappers. Despite two years of dismal failure and awful football they wanted to give him more time yet when Duff takes over they're on to him within five games.

Also, Duff has two points from five games when this season Johnson had one point from four games.

We are where we are but it is down to the failure of Johnson. Not Milton, not Duff. If you think it's sad that people disagree with you, Robin, then fair play, despite you stating you thought Johnson should be sacked you clearly don't really believe it.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 21:07 
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Not at all. We were right to sack GJ but it's what happened next that what was so wrong. The board should have had a plan and implemented it quickly, it was clear they wanted Duff (would he have got it if he were not a former player?), I appreciate we interviewed Curle and Davis but again if they wanted Duff just do it and don't waste the window. Alternatively they could have backed GJ more and got the Rowe deal done, instead we have wasted decent money on lots of players who are clearly not what we need. But it's all too easy to blame GJ who actually signed a decent defence early in the summer but screwed up the midfield

I feel you are so blinded by your dislike of GJ you cannot see the other faults of the board, Milton and even Duff (last two games). You can quote results under Milton but performances declined from what I saw. Under Duff I was and still am optimistic, he came in and we saw an uplift in performance up until half time at Exeter. Since that point we've been very poor and progressively got worse. We have moved on and released players who offered something and been stuck with those that don't (I know we need a club for them). The one highlight is the Varney signing which does excite me and I feel has improved the squad. If you are still attending games you can see fans frustration growing because results and performances are going backwards, if the slide doesn't stop then Duff won't last to January (crowds have not returned despite GJ sacking or you skip that too).


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 21:26 
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Again, Duff has been in charge for a month. One month. The very fact you're suggesting he won't last until January says it all. Despite two years of failure under Johnson you're not willing to give Duff two months.

Johnson left a total mess. That is not going to be easy to clear up. Of course we have to ship players out - we've got far too many. We're not going to get shot of many Johnson put on two-year deals because they know they've got two years of wages and no one else wants them. The only players we can off load is those wanted by other clubs so our hands are tied.

Did you really think supporters were going to come flooding back in an instant. They were driven away by Johnson's failure football and have now found other things to do. It's not going to be easy to entice them back.

You say results have gone backwards. Again, Johnson had one point from four games, since then eight points from eight games - the same as Johnson's record over more than 100 games. So no, they haven't.

If, as you suggest, Duff is sacked in January that'll be it for me. It's not his fault he inherited such a mess and he has my total backing.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 23:12 
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Del Boy wrote:
Rick wrote:
Nesty wrote:
Not sure why you think Milton should take some blame,.
He's the coach. That's why. And why was he allowed to sign some of the players?


Probably because Johnson had yet again done such an awful job in the summer we needed to do something. In three league games he got two wins - that's 2pts per game when in more than a hundred games Johnson averaged little more than a point. But of course the Johnson fan club will blame anyone else.

It's a shame those who wanted Johnson given even more time are now unable to afford Mike Duff the same time to sort the mess out. He's certainly going to need it and it's going to take more than one season.


Johnson fan club are just as intolerable as the Johnson haters. Both simplistic blinkered fools who appear to have no intellectual capacity to understand there are multiple factors at play.

I don’t think anyone is not giving Duff time. Just questioning whether the manner of the sacking made more of a mess than we were already in.

Do we really need to ship players out? Is the potential cost of relegation greater or less than keeping them all on the books until we find a home for the ones we don’t want?

I think Duff has to be given a year or two, but I hope for some consistency and careful decision making from the board. Flogging Eisa, making a statement saying one thing on a Saturday evening then doing the opposite on Tuesday, the lack of any comms during the interregnum, Checkatrade rip-off, etc. It has been a rocky first few months post-Baker and hopefully that settles down and Duff can get on with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 10:00 
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It was obvious Eisa was going to be sold. There was just no plan in place to replace him bar one player who clearly didn't want to come. The rest of the factors you've listed have nothing to do with the team.

Yes we do need to ship out players. Johnson left a bloated, lop-sided squad.
If those near the first 11 are struggling then clearly those with little chance of getting on the bench need to be moved on to allow Duff to bring in others to improve the team. We are clearly trying to move players out Duff doesn't want but that won't be easy as Johnson handed out two-year deals to bang average players.
You seem to think trying to move players out is a cost-cutting measure leading to relegation rather than a way of improving the squad to try to avoid relegation. A rather simplistic and blinkered view.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 10:47 
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Bang average L2 players will do fine for me. A team of those and we should finish nicely mid table.
But based on gates, rather than delusions of grandeur, that seems over-achievement to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 10:51 
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The problem is Del Boy people like yourself suggested sacking GJ was a magic fix hence my Brexit analogy when things were more complicated than that. Those who were calling for his head suggested an instant improvement when GJ went, they suggested crowds would return and it simply hasn't happened.

As I said I do believe sacking GJ was right but I seriously doubt if he were still in charge we would be worse off than we are now and for sure we would not have wasted so much money on a number of inferior players who we are stuck with until January (Clements, Jones, Field etc.) I'll give you some of the summer signings have flopped but other than Tozer I doubt they are on much money (Addei/Debayo to be specific). My biggest frustration is what happened between GJ sacking and Duff appointment that is why we are in this mess just as much as GJ summer recruitment.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 10:54 
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Artemis wrote:
Bang average L2 players will do fine for me. A team of those and we should finish nicely mid table.
But based on gates, rather than delusions of grandeur, that seems over-achievement to me.


We have a wage budget in the top half of this division according to Jon Palmer. Players like Mullins, Hussey are very good players for this level having won promotion several times, we also have Varney, Alcock, Long, Boyle, Atangana, Flinders, Tozer, Dawson, Barnett who are all proven to do well at this level or above. We clearly have the finances and the players the problem is the lack of quality in certain areas which would have been addressed in August if the board acted with haste and a plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 11:06 
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Del Boy wrote:
It was obvious Eisa was going to be sold. There was just no plan in place to replace him bar one player who clearly didn't want to come. The rest of the factors you've listed have nothing to do with the team.

Yes we do need to ship out players. Johnson left a bloated, lop-sided squad.
If those near the first 11 are struggling then clearly those with little chance of getting on the bench need to be moved on to allow Duff to bring in others to improve the team. We are clearly trying to move players out Duff doesn't want but that won't be easy as Johnson handed out two-year deals to bang average players.
You seem to think trying to move players out is a cost-cutting measure leading to relegation rather than a way of improving the squad to try to avoid relegation. A rather simplistic and blinkered view.


Sorry if it comes across as though I am picking on you, I greatly respect you for putting up your point of view but I see so many gaps in what you are saying.
1) It was clear we wanted Rowe and according to Jon Palmer (and others close to the club) the player was very keen to come. The issue was that our approach to the transfer was probably not the best (apparently we offered £25k before Eisa was sold) then increased it up to £175k when Flyde wanted over £200k. More importantly their chairman did not want to sell and was making things difficult. That to me shows a lack of professionalism, either we should unsettle the player and get him to hand in a transfer request (just like other clubs do when picking up players from smaller clubs) or we have a back up plan.
2) The squad when GJ left was around 23 players that is not bloated but about average for this league. I fully agree with you it was lop sided though although he was trying to shift out Dawson (we had three right wingers) and bring in two strikers.
3) As for Johnson handing out two year deals to bang average players in my mind that applies only to Thomas and McAlinden. Debayo was a young prospect so definitely not bang average, I find his deal incredible really but he does have potential. McAlinden to me is a disaster signing and clearly wasn't what we needed. The fact we had him on trial released him then brought him back just before he dropped down a league smacks of panic signing. Thomas I thought was ok without being great, he should have been given a year as a squad player instead he's in the freezer and like McAlinden I suspect we will struggle to move him on. The others given two years were Hussey, Mullins and Tozer all proven quality players at this level although Tozer has not worked out (signed without a plan to balance the team I feel).
4) Under GJ we lacked quality in midfield, the decision to sell Pell was baffling but I assume tied to funding the signings of Hussey/Mullins. Failure to not sign Morrell permanently or to retain Winchester (yes he was offered an obscene bonus) is what has cost us big time, not the sale of Eisa.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 11:16 
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My own personal opinion is that when we have a regular back 5 of Flinders, Long/Alcock, Mullins, Boyle, Hussey things will rapidly improve. Forster is just doing a job at RB, and we obviously need a settled, quality left back as well. Once this settled base is in tact, I believe this will greatly improve defending and attacking.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 11:23 
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What about Duku robin?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 11:35 
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Del Boy wrote:
It was obvious Eisa was going to be sold. There was just no plan in place to replace him bar one player who clearly didn't want to come. The rest of the factors you've listed have nothing to do with the team.

Yes we do need to ship out players. Johnson left a bloated, lop-sided squad.
If those near the first 11 are struggling then clearly those with little chance of getting on the bench need to be moved on to allow Duff to bring in others to improve the team. We are clearly trying to move players out Duff doesn't want but that won't be easy as Johnson handed out two-year deals to bang average players.
You seem to think trying to move players out is a cost-cutting measure leading to relegation rather than a way of improving the squad to try to avoid relegation. A rather simplistic and blinkered view.


The problem is, we are moving on those who should be on the bench and have something to offer the first team, like Kalala and keeping those with less potential, like McAlinden. This weakens the squad and we can’t sign replacements until January.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 11:58 
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This will have to be my last reply - I'm wasting too much time I haven't got on this nonsense.

Robin, if you can find anywhere I've said sacking Johnson was a magic fix for instant improvement I would be amazed. I haven't. He will need at least a season to sort it out.
In the time between sacking Johnson and appointing Duff we won two league games. You point to signing inferior players - Johnson spent two years mostly signing these that's why we finished down the bottom and the squad he left us had no decent attacking players.

You say he tried to sign Rowe. Quite true. When that didn't happen he had no plan even when we needed more than one striker. Surely a novice in football management would know signing players is not straight forward let alone a veteran. To blame the board for Johnson failing to sign decent strikers shows where your loyalties lie.

You question my reference to two-year deals (personally I would only give two-year deals to player proven for the club otherwise it's asking for trouble) and then point to three of them that haven't worked out, one that was signed with a long-term injury, one prospect and one success. Not much else I have to add there.

You say 23 players is about right then agree it was lop-sided hence the 23 players was not the finished squad so it was always going to end up bloated.

You say under GJ we lacked quality in midfield. We also had no strikers. So we're left with a defence - ironically that was missing last season - and a goalkeeper. Think you can see how weak that argument is.

What also is failed to mentioned when supporters like you say it's all got worse etc is that in Duff's five league games we've played three teams in the top four. Perhaps it was you who demanded a magic fix rather than I expecting one. Given Johnson's record of one point a game over more than 100 matches I wouldn't have bet on Johnson getting anything other than three defeats from those games. We've drawn the other two, btw.

Artemis, I wrote bang average - not bang average league two. It was more a way of saying mostly not up to scratch. Personally, I think those who had ideas of grandeur were those who demanded Yates be sacked - some wanted him gone when he was getting us into the play-offs yet wanted to give Johnson more time when his league record was way, way worse. Even in our relegation season when we had four managers Yates has the best record of the lot but of course he gets the blame.

All I want is a team being competitive and not aiming to stay up every season which is what it became under Johnson. I hope Duff can be the man to do this and he has my full backing whatever happens over the next 12 months because the job he's got on his hands is massive.

Sadly there are already some who, like Robbin, are saying he might be sacked in January. Of course, he does it by saying 'some fans' when he really means himself but hopefully most fans will back Duff and give him what he needs to sort the mess out - time.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking over our shoulder
 Post Posted: 16 Oct 2018, 15:09 
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joes dad wrote:
Robin wrote:
It's pathetic to be honest. It reminds me of Brexit, making stupid demands that cannot be realised only to self-harm ourselves in doing so.


Surely you mean stupid demands from the unelected morons in Brussels.


Based on the way they're running rings around our direclty elected politicians and appointed civil servants, I'd say Michel Barnier and co are about as far removed from morons is possible to be.

And Donald Tusk is an indirectly rather than unelected politician. And also not a moron.
Stay off the Express and Mail for a while, you might learn something useful.


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