The board

[asl]

The dingy old William Hill on WR closed last year - unless there's another one 'just up the road' that you're thinking of? Maybe in Pittville?

[London Exile]

I don’t think a hotel chain would be attracted to CTFC in the current location, I think the only feasible way to get the main stand (and PRE) developed is a three way partnership between the Club, Council and Parklands.
It would mean selling a large part of the Parklands land and part of the current car park off for housing but having a new entrance where Cakebridge is.
A new Parklands would be incorporated into the new main stand where they’d become a fully fledged partner with a fixed income (fully signed and documented!) the area would also benefit from a new, modern community hub. No more playground squabbles between the club and parklands but one bespoke facility each can benefit from.
I’d also like to see a MUGA added like the one in Prestbury Park. With the MUGA you’d lose some parking spaces but I think you’d gain far more plus a rental income
As part of the new stand you could build office space which the council could utilise too.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any will for any development to happen the club, it’s known the cost will be high so it’s conversation over.

[Ihearye]

I don’t think a hotel chain would be attracted to CTFC in the current location, I think the only feasible way to get the main stand (and PRE) developed is a three way partnership between the Club, Council and Parklands.
It would mean selling a large part of the Parklands land and part of the current car park off for housing but having a new entrance where Cakebridge is.
A new Parklands would be incorporated into the new main stand where they’d become a fully fledged partner with a fixed income (fully signed and documented!) the area would also benefit from a new, modern community hub. No more playground squabbles between the club and parklands but one bespoke facility each can benefit from.
I’d also like to see a MUGA added like the one in Prestbury Park. With the MUGA you’d lose some parking spaces but I think you’d gain far more plus a rental income
As part of the new stand you could build office space which the council could utilise too.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any will for any development to happen the club, it’s known the cost will be high so it’s conversation over.

Every day is a school day didn't know Prestbury Park had a MUGA, where abouts is it? I obviously need to walk a bit further than the Insurance Bar

[London Exile]

I don’t think a hotel chain would be attracted to CTFC in the current location, I think the only feasible way to get the main stand (and PRE) developed is a three way partnership between the Club, Council and Parklands.
It would mean selling a large part of the Parklands land and part of the current car park off for housing but having a new entrance where Cakebridge is.
A new Parklands would be incorporated into the new main stand where they’d become a fully fledged partner with a fixed income (fully signed and documented!) the area would also benefit from a new, modern community hub. No more playground squabbles between the club and parklands but one bespoke facility each can benefit from.
I’d also like to see a MUGA added like the one in Prestbury Park. With the MUGA you’d lose some parking spaces but I think you’d gain far more plus a rental income
As part of the new stand you could build office space which the council could utilise too.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any will for any development to happen the club, it’s known the cost will be high so it’s conversation over.

Every day is a school day didn't know Prestbury Park had a MUGA, where abouts is it? I obviously need to walk a bit further than the Insurance Bar

The Parish have really smartened the fields up now with a proper rubber based running/walking track around the perimeter, coffee hit and outdoor gym. The MUGA is near to the pavilion.

[Ihearye]

I don’t think a hotel chain would be attracted to CTFC in the current location, I think the only feasible way to get the main stand (and PRE) developed is a three way partnership between the Club, Council and Parklands.
It would mean selling a large part of the Parklands land and part of the current car park off for housing but having a new entrance where Cakebridge is.
A new Parklands would be incorporated into the new main stand where they’d become a fully fledged partner with a fixed income (fully signed and documented!) the area would also benefit from a new, modern community hub. No more playground squabbles between the club and parklands but one bespoke facility each can benefit from.
I’d also like to see a MUGA added like the one in Prestbury Park. With the MUGA you’d lose some parking spaces but I think you’d gain far more plus a rental income
As part of the new stand you could build office space which the council could utilise too.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any will for any development to happen the club, it’s known the cost will be high so it’s conversation over.

Every day is a school day didn't know Prestbury Park had a MUGA, where abouts is it? I obviously need to walk a bit further than the Insurance Bar

The Parish have really smartened the fields up now with a proper rubber based running/walking track around the perimeter, coffee hit and outdoor gym. The MUGA is near to the pavilion.

Thousand apols, thought you meant at the race course

[London Exile]

Every day is a school day didn't know Prestbury Park had a MUGA, where abouts is it? I obviously need to walk a bit further than the Insurance Bar

The Parish have really smartened the fields up now with a proper rubber based running/walking track around the perimeter, coffee hit and outdoor gym. The MUGA is near to the pavilion.

Thousand apols, thought you meant at the race course

and there was me wracking my brains trying to think where insurance bar was in prestbury

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

When it was first mentioned, I thought the hotel idea was some sort of joke. In Whaddon?? Now, a couple of HMO's, sure - I could see that. But it's not really the same thing.

What about a development where the car park side is a row of shops and maybe a gym? A franchised food outlet, bookies that doesn't look like it's stepped out of the 70s, bar... Things that could be open 7 days per week and generate rental income all year round. Corporate space for hire, above.

It's just a pipe-dream, I know...

Agree a hotel feels very misplaced as I just don't see the demand all year around. I thought Andy Wilcox wanted a floor of the new stand to be for his business, surely that is more realistic maybe a couple of companies can let a floor each (presuming any new stand is 3-4 stores high.

A gym is also a decent idea and could work in the location as there isn't anything local which would compete. A bookies could also work particularly popular in more working class areas but there is also one already just up the road.

Good luck finding a bookies willing to co-fund a multimillion pound development.

Alongside hotels, the other developers backed by institutional finance are student accommodation, retirement apartments, and build-to-rent apartments.

I’d imagine rent WR location is too low value for a BTR investor, and the location is too far from shops and tree-lined boulevards for retirement.

I could see Vita Student or someone like that investing in a student development in the WR car park, given proximity to the UoG Francis Close campus and the town centre in general.

But that would most likely mean the Council having to sell the land to the developer and then the Council giving CTFC the cash - why would they? A development annexing much of the car park into a separate plot would probably mean the main entrance to CTFC moving to Prestbury Road/Cakebridge with just pedestrian access from WR.

For me the main barriers to investment are:
- The club doesn’t own the land
- The need to maintain access for thousands of people to matches
- Planning issues relating to 119 Prestbury Road

A post above suggested buying 119 - I assume with a compulsory purchase order by the Council. 119 PR last sold for £370,000 in 2007 so it will be well over half a million now. I can’t see that being a possibility.

Edit: the integrated Parklands and Council development suggestion above would make the most sense and I made the same suggestion previously. But again it would require the Council to give the Club money - assuming they sold the Municipal offices - which raises the question, why would they?

[asl]

(Minor point, not to detract from the rest of your post: nobody was suggesting a bookmaker would invest in the construction of such a building - any more than the Subway or Costa or Frank's 24 hour Gym. I was imagining them all as tenants). No, I don't know where the investment is coming from - this imagery is just that.

[Jerry St Clair]

.

Edit: the integrated Parklands and Council development suggestion above would make the most sense and I made the same suggestion previously. But again it would require the Council to give the Club money - assuming they sold the Municipal offices - which raises the question, why would they?

This is the nub of it. Because Cheltenham is not a footballing town, the council see no benefit.

If this were Sunderland, Newcastle, Portsmouth or even Plymouth where clubs are much bigger deals in their community, councillors would be much more inclined to be helpful to the club. I bet city councillors in Gloucester are receptive to helping out with Kingsholm.

There are few votes to be had in bending over backwards to help develop Whaddon rd

[London Exile]

Just spoke to my mate and his contact within the council has said that they’re still waiting for the club to get back to them with regards a development proposal on Cakebridge Pl!

I guess for any scheme to get off the ground then the parties need to communicate with each other

[Shade]

Either someone's not being honest or neither side knows what's going on then.

November 2015
https://democracy.cheltenham.gov.uk/ieD ... spx?Id=760

There's this from 2019:
https://www.punchline-gloucester.com/ar ... e-complica

From Fans Forum, November 2019:
Q: Anything new on Cakebridge Place?
David Bloxham: Council are under pressure to do something with the plot. The good thing is that with Parklands, council property and we are tenants of the council, we’ve built a closer working relationship - working together for benefit of all. It’s a positive to come out of Parklands. The council see us as an integral part of what happens to Cakebridge and there are ongoing discussions. Paul Baker is heavily involved with the council and we are working towards a plan for the long term future.

PG: They asked us to put together a report, which was positively received by the council. We put our case across and they ‘get it’ now, where we are and what we want. They’ve asked us to do some more work on it. It’s now election time, so we have a few months to do some more work at the kind of project that could be feasible for redevelopment in the area. It’s all council-owned, Parklands, Cakebridge, lot of land comes under that remit.

Over 4 years ago but the club had a few months to do some more work on it...

Also, just digging through old posts, August 2021, Bloxham said he was quite hopeful of a main stand refurb happening in 3-5 years...

[Leckyfan]

Thanks @Shade, really interesting reads - especially the council planning docs from 2015.

From the linked “Cakebridge draft report” my eye was particularly caught by this, near the end:

“3. Alternative options

3.1 Do nothing, which is not acceptable.”

And yet here we are, more than 8 years later…

[Ihearye]

Either someone's not being honest or neither side knows what's going on then.

November 2015
https://democracy.cheltenham.gov.uk/ieD ... spx?Id=760

There's this from 2019:
https://www.punchline-gloucester.com/ar ... e-complica

From Fans Forum, November 2019:
Q: Anything new on Cakebridge Place?
David Bloxham: Council are under pressure to do something with the plot. The good thing is that with Parklands, council property and we are tenants of the council, we’ve built a closer working relationship - working together for benefit of all. It’s a positive to come out of Parklands. The council see us as an integral part of what happens to Cakebridge and there are ongoing discussions. Paul Baker is heavily involved with the council and we are working towards a plan for the long term future.

PG: They asked us to put together a report, which was positively received by the council. We put our case across and they ‘get it’ now, where we are and what we want. They’ve asked us to do some more work on it. It’s now election time, so we have a few months to do some more work at the kind of project that could be feasible for redevelopment in the area. It’s all council-owned, Parklands, Cakebridge, lot of land comes under that remit.

Over 4 years ago but the club had a few months to do some more work on it...

Also, just digging through old posts, August 2021, Bloxham said he was quite hopeful of a main stand refurb happening in 3-5 years...

This of course all depends if you believe Cheltenham council are a) competent and b) trust worthy. Personally I wouldn't trust them to send them to the shops

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Thanks @Shade, really interesting reads - especially the council planning docs from 2015.

From the linked “Cakebridge draft report” my eye was particularly caught by this, near the end:

“3. Alternative options

3.1 Do nothing, which is not acceptable.”

And yet here we are, more than 8 years later…

The proposal report and the options report are both very interesting.

The deadline for bids to the Brownfield Land Release Fund (BLRF2) Round 3 closed on the 14th February. Either of the two housing options deemed viable in the options report would have eligible for funding - I wonder if the Council applied. This was just a fund for housing, so not of interest to the Club.

[plymrob]

The Board is doing fine.

[Ihearye]

Re this hotel suggestion, as an outsider looking in, I have to say that even if Cheltenham doesn't already have enough* hotels, I really cannot see how Whaddon would be a good location (no harm to the good people of the locality).

It's a bit far out for business customers, and away from the usual attractions for tourists. While 25 games a season isn't likely to provide enough custom from visiting fans. Nor is public transport convenient, meaning guests would be confined to using their own cars.

While for weddings, conferences and other events etc, Cheltenham (town) is already well served - and that's before you look to the racecourse, a big counter-attraction.

Nor does CTFC have the visibility, never mind profile in itself to attract people (again, no harm meant).

Btw, I reserve the right to deny I ever posted anything of the sort ("My account was hacked") should someone open a hotel at WR!

P.S. Hearts have just opened what they claim will be "the UK’s first club-owned and operated hotel inside a football stadium": https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/blogs/news/t ... r-bookings

* - No idea whether it does or not.

We’d really need one of the chain hotels to invest as they are the ones backed by institutional finance.

However their model is to buy land and build on it, which means it’s the Council and not the Club.

But, I agree with your concerns. There must be a reason why apart from the Hilton Doubletree in Charlton Kings there is no mid-range chain Cheltenham.

I suspect that the availability and price of land is the issue.

One could see an Ibis-Novotel-Mercure complex on Portland Street and North Place car parks, but not really anywhere else. Certainly not a small site on a residential street in Whaddon.

Prestbury Road - i.e Cakebridge Place would be better for a Premier Inn or similar. But it wouldn’t get planning permission due to blocking the light of 119 Prestbury Road.

I think that house will be a barrier to a few development proposals to be honest.

Out of interest , would you call holiday inn low range?

[Jerry St Clair]

The Board is doing fine.

Overall, yes.

But that doesn't mean they're immune from scrutiny and challenge.

[andgarod]

so we are being told there will be a substantial loss for 22/23
Cannot recall if we sold anyone but I assume the loss includes a chunk for buying seasons and increased interest rates as well as higher utilities

Lets just wait and see what is published and the boards explanation
I assume the £600K sales this season will help offset it this season but we really need to see where we are going on and off the pitch

[ctfc-fan]

Before everyone gets carried away at a ‘loss’, remember we probably have a retained profit from previous years so it will sound worse than it is.

As some one else mentioned we had investments such as the training ground (if that is in these accounts) and higher bills.

[asl]

Buying Seasons shouldn't equate to a loss? If you spend £200k on a tangible asset, don't you then have a £200k tangible asset? -200k + 200k = 0 ?

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Re this hotel suggestion, as an outsider looking in, I have to say that even if Cheltenham doesn't already have enough* hotels, I really cannot see how Whaddon would be a good location (no harm to the good people of the locality).

It's a bit far out for business customers, and away from the usual attractions for tourists. While 25 games a season isn't likely to provide enough custom from visiting fans. Nor is public transport convenient, meaning guests would be confined to using their own cars.

While for weddings, conferences and other events etc, Cheltenham (town) is already well served - and that's before you look to the racecourse, a big counter-attraction.

Nor does CTFC have the visibility, never mind profile in itself to attract people (again, no harm meant).

Btw, I reserve the right to deny I ever posted anything of the sort ("My account was hacked") should someone open a hotel at WR!

P.S. Hearts have just opened what they claim will be "the UK’s first club-owned and operated hotel inside a football stadium": https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/blogs/news/t ... r-bookings

* - No idea whether it does or not.

We’d really need one of the chain hotels to invest as they are the ones backed by institutional finance.

However their model is to buy land and build on it, which means it’s the Council and not the Club.

But, I agree with your concerns. There must be a reason why apart from the Hilton Doubletree in Charlton Kings there is no mid-range chain Cheltenham.

I suspect that the availability and price of land is the issue.

One could see an Ibis-Novotel-Mercure complex on Portland Street and North Place car parks, but not really anywhere else. Certainly not a small site on a residential street in Whaddon.

Prestbury Road - i.e Cakebridge Place would be better for a Premier Inn or similar. But it wouldn’t get planning permission due to blocking the light of 119 Prestbury Road.

I think that house will be a barrier to a few development proposals to be honest.

Out of interest , would you call holiday inn low range?

Yes, Holiday Inn I would class as low range. And the Holiday Inn Express brand, which is what we have by the Brewery I would call budget.

Though I appreciate Holiday Inn may often be considered mid.

[asl]

I once stayed at the Hilton by M4 J13, Newbury. Never again...the Travellodge on the other side of the A34 is far preferable, cleaner, cheaper and doesn't pretend to be something it's not.

[Jerry St Clair]

so we are being told there will be a substantial loss for 22/23
Cannot recall if we sold anyone but I assume the loss includes a chunk for buying seasons and increased interest rates as well as higher utilities

Lets just wait and see what is published and the boards explanation
I assume the £600K sales this season will help offset it this season but we really need to see where we are going on and off the pitch

Agreed. If we have lost money I do not believe it is because of financial mismanagement or incompetence. There will be reasons and they will be valid.

[everyman]

Mentioned somewhere on this forum that Paul Baker said unless a hotel group come up with plans to build a hotel with stand attached, then he can't see a stand being built.
Just checked which clubs have hotel and stands.
UK
DoubleTree By Hilton Milton Keynes – Stadium MK
Holiday Inn Norwich City – Carrow Road
Bolton Whites Hotel – University Of Bolton Stadium
DoubleTree by Hilton at the Ricoh Arena – Ricoh Arena Coventry
Blackpool FC Hotel – Bloomfield Road, Blackpool

Not that many,
I would have thought Cheltenham is quite a good tourist pull. With Horse racing and various Festivals with a ctfc hotel fairly close to Race course and Town with parking would be a goer.
Not sure how many rooms you would get running along a biggish main stand, and how many stories high but should imagine it could be quite a few. Got to be at least 4 stories high. Only 23 days plus cup matches to interfere with daily running of hotel.

A visit to Bolton or MK or Coventry for a mid week break or Cheltenham....mmmmmmmmmmmmm let me think...!!!

The only way a new stand could be built would be if the council moved to new offices on their land at Ctfc.

[ctfc-fan]

Buying Seasons shouldn't equate to a loss? If you spend £200k on a tangible asset, don't you then have a £200k tangible asset? -200k + 200k = 0 ?

You do have an asset but an asset is balance sheet. There could be solicitors fees, interest charges etc. which not be cheap.

Will look out for the accounts.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Buying Seasons shouldn't equate to a loss? If you spend £200k on a tangible asset, don't you then have a £200k tangible asset? -200k + 200k = 0 ?

You do have an asset but an asset is balance sheet. There could be solicitors fees, interest charges etc. which not be cheap.

Will look out for the accounts.

I assume the mortgage payments are in the P&L account, and if the mortgage expenditure on seasons is higher than revenue from seasons then we make a loss on it, regardless of the size of the asset on the balance sheet.

[ctfc-fan]

The mortgage payments would be in P&L

[asl]

Fees, i get - but, out of interest, would the debt of future interest (though it may be variable) be recognised up-front? Or just the advance of the mortgage? So, in my example of £200k loan, would the additional compounding interest over the x years lifetime be recorded at that point?

We'll not get into TVM (Time Value of Money) cos that's waaaaay over-complicating matters!

[Ihearye]

Mentioned somewhere on this forum that Paul Baker said unless a hotel group come up with plans to build a hotel with stand attached, then he can't see a stand being built.
Just checked which clubs have hotel and stands.
UK
DoubleTree By Hilton Milton Keynes – Stadium MK
Holiday Inn Norwich City – Carrow Road
Bolton Whites Hotel – University Of Bolton Stadium
DoubleTree by Hilton at the Ricoh Arena – Ricoh Arena Coventry
Blackpool FC Hotel – Bloomfield Road, Blackpool

Not that many,
I would have thought Cheltenham is quite a good tourist pull. With Horse racing and various Festivals with a ctfc hotel fairly close to Race course and Town with parking would be a goer.
Not sure how many rooms you would get running along a biggish main stand, and how many stories high but should imagine it could be quite a few. Got to be at least 4 stories high. Only 23 days plus cup matches to interfere with daily running of hotel.

A visit to Bolton or MK or Coventry for a mid week break or Cheltenham....mmmmmmmmmmmmm let me think...!!!

The only way a new stand could be built would be if the council moved to new offices on their land at Ctfc.

edit - the Coventry Building society arena. And what a God forgotten location that is in. However it does have the M6 close to hand and the arena holds many exhibitions etc

[ctfc-fan]

Fees, i get - but, out of interest, would the debt of future interest (though it may be variable) be recognised up-front? Or just the advance of the mortgage? So, in my example of £200k loan, would the additional compounding interest over the x years lifetime be recorded at that point?

We'll not get into TVM (Time Value of Money) cos that's waaaaay over-complicating matters!

No that would be recognised as it comes out the bank. The upfront asset can be recognised in the 1st year, well certainly for assets such as plant and machinery/vans etc.

[Jerry St Clair]

I’ve stayed in the Coventry hotel for a conference. The room had a window onto the pitch. Very much integrated into the stadium.

[paperboy]

Oxford United's ambitious plans for a new stadium with a hotel take another step forward.

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24141 ... w-stadium/

[Wellwisher]

I’ve stayed in the Coventry hotel for a conference. The room had a window onto the pitch. Very much integrated into the stadium.

The flash new stand at Fulham will also have "restaurants overlooking the river, events spaces, a health club complete with roof-top pool, a boutique hotel and a roof terrace": https://populous.com/project/fulham-fc- ... evelopment

Mind you, I still don't think that would entice me to pay £3k for an ordinary (i.e. not Corporate or Premium etc) Season Ticket in there! (Yes, you read that right, £3k per adult). Or a one-off £160 for a ticket for the visit of Man Utd:
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/footba ... 18185.html

[Ihearye]

I’ve stayed in the Coventry hotel for a conference. The room had a window onto the pitch. Very much integrated into the stadium.

The flash new stand at Fulham will also have "restaurants overlooking the river, events spaces, a health club complete with roof-top pool, a boutique hotel and a roof terrace": https://populous.com/project/fulham-fc- ... evelopment

Mind you, I still don't think that would entice me to pay £3k for an ordinary (i.e. not Corporate or Premium etc) Season Ticket in there! (Yes, you read that right, £3k per adult). Or a one-off £160 for a ticket for the visit of Man Utd:
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/footba ... 18185.html

Always find it pretty insulting and patronising, that supporters are charged more to watch their team, play the more popular teams.

[Jerry St Clair]

Fulham are squarely aiming that pricing at tourists. Remember they were the first club to have a "neutral" end for neither home nor away fans. It's incredibly cynical and insulting to their own fans.

Uli Hoeness at Bayern hit the nail on the head:

“We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income, but what's £2m to us? In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England.”