Southgate failed as an England player...

Malabus · 11 Jul 2021, 22:27

Failed as an England manager...he must go.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 11 Jul 2021, 23:10

This I do agree with. Hope to see a new man in for the world cup who gets the team to at least perform to the sum of the parts of the squad.

ctfc-fan · 12 Jul 2021, 06:44

RCs you’re as bad as Mal. Who would you suggest then?

Nesty · 12 Jul 2021, 06:51

Mike Duff

Am I the only one to think that our number 19 was doing nothing. I think he touched the ball twice in the 2nd half

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 12 Jul 2021, 08:15

ctfc-fan wrote:RCs you’re as bad as Mal. Who would you suggest then?

It’s not my job to appoint a new manager, that is for the FA.

Just stating my opinion that starting with 7 defensive players when you have the best attacking squad in the world and trying to sit back and hold on for a 1-0 is not a tactic which will win the World Cup.

longmover · 12 Jul 2021, 08:43

Malabus wrote:Failed as an England manager...he must go.

I don't see what another tournament with him in charge is going to achieve? He got to a final and was found wanting in his decision making, Italy's back two had a combined age of 71 and this wasn't exploited at all, no attacking mentality from the manager. There will never be another opportunity like this for England and they fluffed it. Germany, France, Portugal, Spain et al will all come back stronger.

Terry Venables was the last England manager that allowed attacking players to attack, yet again we have this talented crop of attacking players that get ten minutes to change a game.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 12 Jul 2021, 09:00

longmover wrote:
Malabus wrote:Failed as an England manager...he must go.
I don't see what another tournament with him in charge is going to achieve? He got to a final and was found wanting in his decision making, Italy's back two had a combined age of 71 and this wasn't exploited at all, no attacking mentality from the manager. There will never be another opportunity like this for England and they fluffed it. Germany, France, Portugal, Spain et al will all come back stronger.

Terry Venables was the last England manager that allowed attacking players to attack, yet again we have this talented crop of attacking players that get ten minutes to change a game.

Completely agree. Germany we got away with it when a backwards pass almost led to an equaliser. A forward pass and Muller would never have been let in.

Ukraine the worst side we played and one of the worst in the tournament so can’t judge other than we did what was needed, like the drab group games.

Denmark we finally took it to them properly in extra time and they couldn’t cope.

So it was just not the final.

Shutting up shop for for a 1-0 against Czech Republic or playing for a 0-0 vs Scotland gets you out the group, fair enough. But such tactics will not win trophies.

Unless Southgate changes is mindset and approach, why bother.

Hubert Parry · 12 Jul 2021, 10:31

I cannot agree with any of you.

You win international trophies by not conceding.

France and Belgium have better offensive players than England and remind me how they got on in the tournament?

England lost on penalties. These are the margins. Southgate has led us to a semi final in the world cup and now a final of the Euros. Comfortably England's second most successful manager. All this with a very young squad.

Tactically, he has got it spot on throughout the tournament, including last night. Italy had to do some pretty major tweaking at half time to turn the match around and to their credit, they did.

longmover · 12 Jul 2021, 10:55

Hubert Parry wrote:I cannot agree with any of you.

You win international trophies by not conceding.

France and Belgium have better offensive players than England and remind me how they got on in the tournament?

England lost on penalties. These are the margins. Southgate has led us to a semi final in the world cup and now a final of the Euros. Comfortably England's second most successful manager. All this with a very young squad.

Tactically, he has got it spot on throughout the tournament, including last night. Italy had to do some pretty major tweaking at half time to turn the match around and to their credit, they did.

Successful managers win things. GS got it tactically wrong last night, one up after two minutes and the Italians were run raged and arguing amongst themselves time to go for the knock out punch but no, lie deep and let the pressure come. He has no issues with taking Grealish off to become more defensive so why so hesitant to do the opposite?

It's not league football and you can have another go next week, this fascination with a defensive mindset is so ruddy infuriating.

Another thing as well the £hithousery and blatant red card fouls committed by Italy last night were also another reason why we wont win anything, we do not have a win at all costs mentality.

Shade · 12 Jul 2021, 11:04

I can't argue with GS overall tactics up until last night. But last night he was wrong. And I'm bemused by the decision to keep Sterling on for the full 120 mins when he was obviously absolutely knackered in ET, putting in virtually no running at all, and then he didn't take a penalty but lets a couple of 19 and 20 year olds step up, one of which having barely touched the ball. Shocking.

Hubert Parry · 12 Jul 2021, 11:44

Successful managers are those who meet or exceed expectations. England are not the best side in the world or in Europe, yet. We are still maturing.

England were not expected to win either of the last tournaments and have reached the latter stages, that is success whether you like it or not.

Southgate has not only proven himself to be tactically excellent but he has also curated an exceptional togetherness which counts for a huge amount in team sports.

We have tried the attacking approach and shoehorning of attacking players before, under world class proven managers. It did not work out. You win tournaments by having defensive cohesion and balance and having players who can produce moments when it matters. We are building towards mastering that art and we are probably 2-3 tournaments away from this squad reaching their prime.

If England had won on penalties yesterday, I dare say many of you would have been calling for a knighthood and a statue. It's completely disingenuous to say that Southgate has failed.

longmover · 12 Jul 2021, 11:53

Well I'm sure 'success is subjective' is written on the World and European cup trophies.

Hubert Parry · 12 Jul 2021, 11:55

It obviously isn't.

That is not the point.

You have not come up with a solution. Who are we appointing then? You mentioned Terry Venables above. I don't recall him leading England to victory or even a final?

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 12 Jul 2021, 13:43

We have the best defence in tournament. Personally, I think replacing Rice with an attacking player late on or in extra time would not have risked conceding and would have helped us press Italy.

Two things stand out to me.

1. We only put pressure on their defence three or four times. One was an easy goal and one was Chiellini’s booking. We didn’t try to pressure them as much as we should.

2. There was a spell during extra time where Bonucci just stood with the ball for 30 seconds on the half way line with Kane and Sterling making no effort to close him down. Neither were the wide defenders closed down.

If Cheltenham sat back for an hour and simply played to the oppositions strength whilst ignoring their weakness the home crowd at WR, including HP I suspect, would be livid.

longmover · 12 Jul 2021, 15:01

Hubert Parry wrote:It obviously isn't.

That is not the point.

You have not come up with a solution. Who are we appointing then? You mentioned Terry Venables above. I don't recall him leading England to victory or even a final?

look at the list of England managers since Keegan: Howard Wilkinson, Peter Taylor, Sven, Steve McClaren, Fabio Cappello, Stuart Pearce, Roy Hodgson, Sam Allardyce. What makes you think they will ever veer away from another 'safe' pair of hands that wont ruffle too many feathers or play lip service to the premier league in getting England players to play (heaven forbid) like they do for their domestic teams.

I heard Trevor Brooking being interviewed on radio on the appointment of GS, why is someone who played international football between 1974 - 1982 making decisions on who the England manager is in 2016?

I do agree though during these rather troubled times GS has been impeccable in his comments and attitude and has garnered alot of traction in moving football forward and changing the attitude of how football is perceived which is commendable but he's there to win tournaments when the opportunity arises. Sometimes I think the FA (in their own mission to appear more progressive) care more about off the field than on it.

Red Duke · 12 Jul 2021, 15:24

For me, the game and tactics employed was summed up in just one stat: 1 shot on target in 120 minutes of football and that was after less than 2 minutes.

Nesty · 12 Jul 2021, 15:43

Red Duke wrote:For me, the game and tactics employed was summed up in just one stat: 1 shot on target in 120 minutes of football and that was after less than 2 minutes.

spot on.

Malabus · 13 Jul 2021, 11:41

Maybe I was a little harsh. It was straight after the game.

The 2nd half of the game was so dire just trying to protect a 1-0 lead it was agony to watch.

Hope there were lessons to be learnt.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 13 Jul 2021, 16:58

Malabus wrote:Maybe I was a little harsh. It was straight after the game.

The 2nd half of the game was so dire just trying to protect a 1-0 lead it was agony to watch.

Hope there were lessons to be learnt.

Southgate has admitted that they failed to manage the game in the second half but is yet yo analyse why.

Not sitting back and being subservient to the opposition is something Southgate has focused on after the Croatia game, and in fairness, Italy is the first time we have seen a repeat of that complete submission.

longmover · 14 Jul 2021, 08:28

RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Malabus wrote:Maybe I was a little harsh. It was straight after the game.

The 2nd half of the game was so dire just trying to protect a 1-0 lead it was agony to watch.

Hope there were lessons to be learnt.
Southgate has admitted that they failed to manage the game in the second half but is yet yo analyse why.

Not sitting back and being subservient to the opposition is something Southgate has focused on after the Croatia game, and in fairness, Italy is the first time we have seen a repeat of that complete submission.

Not good enough though is it, if this has been 'worked on and recognized' why has it been allowed to happen again in a final? I just don't get how a manager can watch something happen in front of their eyes and do nothing about it? Their job is to manage the team and the game to WIN. Its not like he hasn't got that same group of players for another six months to work on it is it, Mancini saw the game change so he took control and changed Italy to win and they did.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 14 Jul 2021, 09:53

longmover wrote:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Malabus wrote:Maybe I was a little harsh. It was straight after the game.

The 2nd half of the game was so dire just trying to protect a 1-0 lead it was agony to watch.

Hope there were lessons to be learnt.
Southgate has admitted that they failed to manage the game in the second half but is yet yo analyse why.

Not sitting back and being subservient to the opposition is something Southgate has focused on after the Croatia game, and in fairness, Italy is the first time we have seen a repeat of that complete submission.
Not good enough though is it, if this has been 'worked on and recognized' why has it been allowed to happen again in a final? I just don't get how a manager can watch something happen in front of their eyes and do nothing about it? Their job is to manage the team and the game to WIN. Its not like he hasn't got that same group of players for another six months to work on it is it, Mancini saw the game change so he took control and changed Italy to win and they did.

I quite agree. We had enough on the bench to win the game comfortably.

longmover · 14 Jul 2021, 10:03

This constant unwillingness to go for the jugular and kill a team off is why we will never win anything, we must have a manager that has a win at all costs mentality but the FA will never allow this to happen.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 14 Jul 2021, 17:06

longmover wrote:This constant unwillingness to go for the jugular and kill a team off is why we will never win anything, we must have a manager that has a win at all costs mentality but the FA will never allow this to happen.

True. I am not a fan of the target setting from the FA. If they set a target of Semi Finals then a manager will aim for that and job done if succeeded. For me personally, in a knock out tournament one might as well go out in the last 16 as the Semis…the prize is the same for both.