WHO SAYS CHEATS NEVER PROSPER?

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SOFT MACHINE
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/ar ... ljl839580o

Not specifically sour grapes but................... Why are we where we are and Reading, despite even more "misdemeanors" disclosed today, still in League One?

Hey ho.
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Shade
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It's a joke.
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longmover
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I've had to grit my teeth on this and that fact that derby have had their praises sung by all for their promotion not taking into consideration they've basically done a £uck you all!! having nearly gone out of business, they'll be back in league one in no time after chasing the prem dream.

Big clubs can cheat, there is no long term deterrent for them not to. Spend a few seasons in league one sell out your ground week in and out in your promotion season.

what's the point in playing by the rules eh.
Jerry St Clair
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longmover wrote: 15 May 2024, 16:54 Big clubs can cheat, there is no long term deterrent for them not to. Spend a few seasons in league one sell out your ground week in and out in your promotion season.

what's the point in playing by the rules eh.
This is the uncomfortable truth. Clubs gamble and cheat and if they get it right, hello Premier League and unimaginable riches. Get it wrong and they serve a few years penance in the lower leagues and go again. There’s not much to deter the gamble.
Red Duke
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Football always seems to favour the cheats. One rule for some, another rule for others. Look at Man City compared to Nottingham Forest and Everton. Reading's treatment as compared to Bury. Not forgetting Leicester who went bust and were never relegated. Swindon and their on going problems.

I am sure if CTFC were ever in a similar situation, they would told to start from the bottom like Macclesfield, Darlington etc. and not given special treatment.
plymrob
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Back in time, I seem to recall that Swindon were given a big relegation
Red Duke
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plymrob wrote: 18 May 2024, 20:12 Back in time, I seem to recall that Swindon were given a big relegation
They should have been told to start from the bottom. Scotland did it right with Rangers.
plymrob
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Futile gesture with Rangers though. Same as Man City - thinking if and hoping when!
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Ihearye
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plymrob wrote: 18 May 2024, 20:54 Futile gesture with Rangers though. Same as Man City - thinking if and hoping when!
Would be interested to hear why you think the Rangers demotion was futile. Yes they would obviously inn back again, but it is just the kind of sanction that is required
asl
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Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
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Ihearye
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asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
So you would rather supporters were left without a club. Personally have no great desire to see Man City take part in a local league and playing on the local rec, but think dropping them down to L2 would be a wake up call and a fair punishment. If their owners want to keep on in L2 and the loss of Kudos and exposure that entails, then fair enough
asl
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Ihearye wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:50 So you would rather supporters were left without a club.
Not entirely sure where I said - or even implied - that...
paperboy
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asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Thanks ASL, a long but good read.
Jerry St Clair
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asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Interesting. The continuity is an interesting one.

We, of course, recently played against Stevenage FC who are a different company to the Stevenage Borough we played in non-league in the 90s. But they are clearly a continuation of the old club and I have no objection to that.

The problem is that punishments are nearly always vested on the football club and therefore the fans. This wrong. Sanctions and punishments should be financial with accountability on the owners, not the football clubs. That might deter many of the sharks.
ctfc-fan
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Jerry St Clair wrote:
asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Interesting. The continuity is an interesting one.

We, of course, recently played against Stevenage FC who are a different company to the Stevenage Borough we played in non-league in the 90s. But they are clearly a continuation of the old club and I have no objection to that.

The problem is that punishments are nearly always vested on the football club and therefore the fans. This wrong. Sanctions and punishments should be financial with accountability on the owners, not the football clubs. That might deter many of the sharks.
But it is the club as a general who benefit when it is going well, so you have to punish them that way.
Si Robin
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Jerry St Clair wrote: 19 May 2024, 10:18
asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Interesting. The continuity is an interesting one.

We, of course, recently played against Stevenage FC who are a different company to the Stevenage Borough we played in non-league in the 90s. But they are clearly a continuation of the old club and I have no objection to that.

The problem is that punishments are nearly always vested on the football club and therefore the fans. This wrong. Sanctions and punishments should be financial with accountability on the owners, not the football clubs. That might deter many of the sharks.
I'm not sure you're right about Stevenage.

They were promoted as Stevenage Borough and just dropped the Borough from their name on promotion. Nothing to do with reforming or anything.
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Ihearye
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asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:58
Ihearye wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:50 So you would rather supporters were left without a club.
Not entirely sure where I said - or even implied - that...
What would your solution be then?
Fuller
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Si Robin wrote: 19 May 2024, 11:14
Jerry St Clair wrote: 19 May 2024, 10:18
asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Interesting. The continuity is an interesting one.

We, of course, recently played against Stevenage FC who are a different company to the Stevenage Borough we played in non-league in the 90s. But they are clearly a continuation of the old club and I have no objection to that.

The problem is that punishments are nearly always vested on the football club and therefore the fans. This wrong. Sanctions and punishments should be financial with accountability on the owners, not the football clubs. That might deter many of the sharks.
I'm not sure you're right about Stevenage.

They were promoted as Stevenage Borough and just dropped the Borough from their name on promotion. Nothing to do with reforming or anything.
Shows how old I am. I remember us playing Stevenage Athletic in the mid 1970’s!
Athletic went bust in 1976, but reformed as Borough playing friendlies and joined a league a few years later.
The Borough part of the name was dropped in 2010.
There was even a club called Stevenage Town that folded in 1968.
Not many towns have had clubs that have had four different names!
Last edited by Fuller on 19 May 2024, 12:52, edited 3 times in total.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Red Duke wrote: 18 May 2024, 20:07 Football always seems to favour the cheats. One rule for some, another rule for others. Look at Man City compared to Nottingham Forest and Everton. Reading's treatment as compared to Bury. Not forgetting Leicester who went bust and were never relegated. Swindon and their on going problems.

I am sure if CTFC were ever in a similar situation, they would told to start from the bottom like Macclesfield, Darlington etc. and not given special treatment.
Similar to the corporate world in a sense. Large turnover - or expected turnover - makes losses seem more acceptable.

Just look at the likes of Uber etc who lost millions, or even billions year on year, yet were still valued in the billions with investors lining up to throw good money after bad.

Whilst in contrast, a small local independent company will be closing and liquidating after a couple of months of not being able to pay staff or bills.

Derby aren’t punished because, as you point out, the authorities know that once they are in Legue One for a few seasons they will cut the cost base right back down towards League One levels but will be getting 30,000 watching home games. So the cash flow and bank account looks very healthy.

Whereas Macclesfield and Cheltenham have already cut costs to the bone, so if they can’t afford to operate in L1 or L2 there’s not really any hope for turning it around. Then making the club restart at a very amateur level with hardly any cost base is the equivalent of Derby being in L1. I.e. if CTFC were in the Hellenic League getting 800 or 900 fans, whilst Fairford average 96 fans then by the time we get back up to the National League the bank balance will be very healthy.
asl
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Ihearye wrote: 19 May 2024, 12:02 What would your solution be then?
I have no solution to offer, so I offered none.

If you pushed me, I'd probably suggest that the new club should be exactly that. Fans who have lost their old club would naturally gravitate towards the new one if there's a common link provided by, say, the home ground (like Rangers, Hereford and Macclesfield). The fans wouldn't be disenfranchised - but is that club still the same club as before? Not sure I believe that.
Uppy
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asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 13:45
Ihearye wrote: 19 May 2024, 12:02 What would your solution be then?
I have no solution to offer, so I offered none.

If you pushed me, I'd probably suggest that the new club should be exactly that. Fans who have lost their old club would naturally gravitate towards the new one if there's a common link provided by, say, the home ground (like Rangers, Hereford and Macclesfield). The fans wouldn't be disenfranchised - but is that club still the same club as before? Not sure I believe that.
Rangers was a new company rather than a new club so a bit different. All the history transferred and UEFA stated that it’s still the same club. It’s largely just rivals that claim otherwise (as most would when given an opportunity to take shots at a team they dislike - part of the fun of football).
Jerry St Clair
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Si Robin wrote: 19 May 2024, 11:14
Jerry St Clair wrote: 19 May 2024, 10:18
asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 08:16 Well the Sevco Franchise got to keep all Rangers' titles and honours, despite essentially being a new club.

The Wiki entry is quite interesting and I'd not read it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administr ... l_Club_plc
Interesting. The continuity is an interesting one.

We, of course, recently played against Stevenage FC who are a different company to the Stevenage Borough we played in non-league in the 90s. But they are clearly a continuation of the old club and I have no objection to that.

The problem is that punishments are nearly always vested on the football club and therefore the fans. This wrong. Sanctions and punishments should be financial with accountability on the owners, not the football clubs. That might deter many of the sharks.
I'm not sure you're right about Stevenage.

They were promoted as Stevenage Borough and just dropped the Borough from their name on promotion. Nothing to do with reforming or anything.
Ah, yes, you're right. I stand corrected.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
asl wrote: 19 May 2024, 13:45
Ihearye wrote: 19 May 2024, 12:02 What would your solution be then?
I have no solution to offer, so I offered none.

If you pushed me, I'd probably suggest that the new club should be exactly that. Fans who have lost their old club would naturally gravitate towards the new one if there's a common link provided by, say, the home ground (like Rangers, Hereford and Macclesfield). The fans wouldn't be disenfranchised - but is that club still the same club as before? Not sure I believe that.
For me it’s the same club. The fans make the club, even more so if at the same location.

If CTFC went bust and reformed with a new company, I’d not view it differently. I would still expect the legends memorabilia in the club bar and the same Robins branding etc. It would be Cheltenham fans supporting Cheltenham at Whaddon Road like they have been for decades. That is what matters, not what’s on the Companies House confirmation statement.
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