Ground redevelopment

Talk about anything to do with Cheltenham Town, CTFC 500 Club, League 2, ex players & Managers

Moderators: Admin, Ralph, asl, Robin

Fuller
Posts: 1668
Joined: 27 Jun 2012, 09:23
Sadly not at Whaddon Road ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-60054892

But wouldn't it a great start if somehow we could raise half that amount for a new main stand?
Will it ever happen? Surely if we are ever to progress as a club, both on and off the field, something has to be done?
Not holding my breath though.....
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Tough one. It is trying to weight up which poses the biggest risk to our future viability and success: Having the current stand or taking on the debt needed to finance a new one.

The cheapest debt would be if the Borough Council took out a loan to build a new stand complex which also houses a new Council office so they can sell the current one. The combination of selling the current building and moving into a smaller office with massively better energy efficiency and cheaper running costs would make it viable for the Council with a quick payback and then be a financial benefit ongoing.

Nearly every Council in the country is wondering about downsizing due to permanent home working or hybrid working. And many Councils are doing this into new buildings so they can become zero carbon much more quickly. CBC could also use the new event/conference space for their Council purposes as well.

It’s the only solution which is risk free for both the Club and the Council.*

(*Barring one of us winning the Euromillions and funding a stand with no strings and desire to be on the Board etc).
Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 20 Jan 2022, 19:20, edited 2 times in total.
Zaffer
Posts: 12
Joined: 22 Dec 2021, 00:26
That’s a very interesting thought/proposition ,seems sensible, have there been any comments from the council in the past in relation to this ?
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Zaffer wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 18:42 That’s a very interesting thought/proposition ,seems sensible, have there been any comments from the council in the past in relation to this ?
None that I am aware of - it just dawned on me after writing the first para of the post, partly informed by what some recent clients are doing or planning.
London Exile
Posts: 3128
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
Unless someone aside from the club is going to foot the bill, then I can’t see any new main stand materialising.
I thought the land swap with Cakebridge Place was going to be a catalyst but it never materialised. A joint venture with Parklands and the council to build a main stand complete with facilities for each of the 3 parties combined with selling off other parcels of land for housing could help fund it but I don’t think it will happen.

The next best solution would be to revamp what’s there, potentially they could add some additional facilities above the entrance to the robins nest (like they did with the hospitality boxes in ‘99) and there’s a few other bits that could be done

I think if the club were to self fund it would put an extraordinary strain on finances so for me, I think a revamp would be the best solution,
User avatar
longmover
Posts: 1822
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 18:55
London Exile wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 19:47 Unless someone aside from the club is going to foot the bill, then I can’t see any new main stand materialising.
I thought the land swap with Cakebridge Place was going to be a catalyst but it never materialised. A joint venture with Parklands and the council to build a main stand complete with facilities for each of the 3 parties combined with selling off other parcels of land for housing could help fund it but I don’t think it will happen.

The next best solution would be to revamp what’s there, potentially they could add some additional facilities above the entrance to the robins nest (like they did with the hospitality boxes in ‘99) and there’s a few other bits that could be done

I think if the club were to self fund it would put an extraordinary strain on finances so for me, I think a revamp would be the best solution,
This would mean the club stepping into the 21st Century, can't imagine the FEAR this would bring to the boardroom :roll:
Jerry St Clair
Posts: 628
Joined: 15 Aug 2011, 16:40
The business case for a new stand must be close to a complete no brainer.

Bigger, more numerous, better equipped hospitality boxes (which could be hired for business functions in the week)
Bigger, better catering and bar facilities (more money on match days, opportunities for non-match day income)
Expanded club shop (more welcoming, bigger range, more sales)
More seats, bigger crowds for big games.
Better facilities for players and staff.

None of us expect a massive, expensive vanity stand. Just a modest, say 2500 capacity structure with 21st century facilities. By maximising non-football revenue, income generated would surely, comfortably, cover the servicing of any loan (borrowing has never been so cheap). Fleetwood's main stand would seem a good template cost £4 million.

I cannot fathom why it hasn't happened yet. Very few clubs in League One have invested nothing in their grounds int he past 20 years. Which is the position we're currently in.
User avatar
Broadway Brian
Posts: 46
Joined: 31 Aug 2021, 14:43
Jerry St Clair wrote:The business case for a new stand must be close to a complete no brainer.

Bigger, more numerous, better equipped hospitality boxes (which could be hired for business functions in the week)
Bigger, better catering and bar facilities (more money on match days, opportunities for non-match day income)
Expanded club shop (more welcoming, bigger range, more sales)
More seats, bigger crowds for big games.
Better facilities for players and staff.

None of us expect a massive, expensive vanity stand. Just a modest, say 2500 capacity structure with 21st century facilities. By maximising non-football revenue, income generated would surely, comfortably, cover the servicing of any loan (borrowing has never been so cheap). Fleetwood's main stand would seem a good template cost £4 million.

I cannot fathom why it hasn't happened yet. Very few clubs in League One have invested nothing in their grounds int he past 20 years. Which is the position we're currently in.
They don’t maximise non-football revenue currently though. It’s people, vision and attitude as well as facilities that need to change.
Ben version 4:0
Posts: 100
Joined: 31 May 2021, 05:22
Broadway Robin, I think that is massively unfair. To say "people need to change" when our board have delivered our best ever team, on a sustainable basis, is really insulting to the people who have worked hard to get us to this point.

And jerry cannot fathom how those idiots in charge haven't sorted this out already! He simply cannot fathom it :lol:

Watch how easy this is! :

I think we should all invest £10k per fan next Saturday and use the money to build a new stand that has good viewing lines and corporate facilities, a gym, offices for cbc and superdry and Microsoft, and affordable housing for 1,400 people. If the board don't deliver it they MUST GO!! People must change and I can't fathom why they haven't done it already

Grow up people :lol:
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Jerry St Clair wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 19:48 The business case for a new stand must be close to a complete no brainer.

Bigger, more numerous, better equipped hospitality boxes (which could be hired for business functions in the week)
Bigger, better catering and bar facilities (more money on match days, opportunities for non-match day income)
Expanded club shop (more welcoming, bigger range, more sales)
More seats, bigger crowds for big games.
Better facilities for players and staff.

None of us expect a massive, expensive vanity stand. Just a modest, say 2500 capacity structure with 21st century facilities. By maximising non-football revenue, income generated would surely, comfortably, cover the servicing of any loan (borrowing has never been so cheap). Fleetwood's main stand would seem a good template cost £4 million.

I cannot fathom why it hasn't happened yet. Very few clubs in League One have invested nothing in their grounds int he past 20 years. Which is the position we're currently in.
I do not see the Club wanting to take on £4million (or whatever) in debt. Even the most confident revenue forecasts are not guarantees…it only takes two seasons to drop back to non-league and if that happens with £1million+ still owed it could be the end of the Club. Fleetwood were bankrolled by a millionaire owner remember.
Jerry St Clair
Posts: 628
Joined: 15 Aug 2011, 16:40
Ben version 4:0 wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 09:38 And jerry cannot fathom how those idiots in charge haven't sorted this out already! He simply cannot fathom it :lol:

Watch how easy this is! :

I think we should all invest £10k per fan next Saturday and use the money to build a new stand that has good viewing lines and corporate facilities, a gym, offices for cbc and superdry and Microsoft, and affordable housing for 1,400 people. If the board don't deliver it they MUST GO!! People must change and I can't fathom why they haven't done it already

Grow up people :lol:
I never said the board were idiots and I never said they should go for not delivering. I completely understand the practical difficulties.

The Main Stand is end of life and desperately needs replacing. Apart from player recruitment, it is the primary area for investment and has been for at least a decade. Dozens of clubs, many smaller than us, manage to build new stands in the past decade so I can't fathom why there has been, and seems no likelihood of being, any progress whatsoever on it.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3489
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
The same old ramblings again. The Board are working on it but nothing will happen until the Council sort out an overall plan for Cakebridge Place and surrounds.(probably another five years at their usual rate of progress) This has been written about and spoken about so many times. Those interested might ask their Councillor what is happening.
everyman
Posts: 1854
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 09:11
London Exile wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 19:47 Unless someone aside from the club is going to foot the bill, then I can’t see any new main stand materialising.
I thought the land swap with Cakebridge Place was going to be a catalyst but it never materialised. A joint venture with Parklands and the council to build a main stand complete with facilities for each of the 3 parties combined with selling off other parcels of land for housing could help fund it but I don’t think it will happen.

The next best solution would be to revamp what’s there, potentially they could add some additional facilities above the entrance to the robins nest (like they did with the hospitality boxes in ‘99) and there’s a few other bits that could be done

I think if the club were to self fund it would put an extraordinary strain on finances so for me, I think a revamp would be the best solution,
If the council decide how to use the Cakebridge Place land it will be then the club can make some plans re stand developement.I favour a cheap option to extend the existing stand seating both ends with the option of building below them as and when finances allow.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
everyman wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 10:54
London Exile wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 19:47 Unless someone aside from the club is going to foot the bill, then I can’t see any new main stand materialising.
I thought the land swap with Cakebridge Place was going to be a catalyst but it never materialised. A joint venture with Parklands and the council to build a main stand complete with facilities for each of the 3 parties combined with selling off other parcels of land for housing could help fund it but I don’t think it will happen.

The next best solution would be to revamp what’s there, potentially they could add some additional facilities above the entrance to the robins nest (like they did with the hospitality boxes in ‘99) and there’s a few other bits that could be done

I think if the club were to self fund it would put an extraordinary strain on finances so for me, I think a revamp would be the best solution,
If the council decide how to use the Cakebridge Place land it will be then the club can make some plans re stand developement.I favour a cheap option to extend the existing stand seating both ends with the option of building below them as and when finances allow.
That’s the worst of all worlds in my view and false economy. Bolting on seats at either end adds capacity which we do not need, but does nothing to redevelop, expand, and improve the match day and non-match day facilities which is what we need. It would be spending on creating a Frankenstein stand which could make the whole set up look worse if done too cheaply.

The Council need to see the bigger picture. Forget swapping land. Just treat the carpark and Cakebridge as one development site.
User avatar
Shade
Posts: 13818
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
Jerry St Clair wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 19:48
I cannot fathom why it hasn't happened yet. Very few clubs in League One have invested nothing in their grounds int he past 20 years. Which is the position we're currently in.
We have had two fully seated stands built in the last 20 years (and 2 months) so I wouldn’t say nothing has been invested.
drgm
Posts: 323
Joined: 31 Jul 2014, 20:15
The reason that the club haven't redeveloped the old stand is because it is not viable.
What would a new stand cost? Three, four, five million? You'd have to sell an awful lot
of hospitality boxes in order for it to pay for itself. There's no point in bankrupting the
club for the sake of a vanity project.

If we had more fans than could fit in the ground then that might be different.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
drgm wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 13:15 The reason that the club haven't redeveloped the old stand is because it is not viable.
What would a new stand cost? Three, four, five million? You'd have to sell an awful lot
of hospitality boxes in order for it to pay for itself. There's no point in bankrupting the
club for the sake of a vanity project.

If we had more fans than could fit in the ground then that might be different.
Agreed. Any development needs to be debt free for the Club in my view. Whether that means Council or a private sector partner taking on the debt, that’s for the Board (or more likely consultants and advisors) to work through.

The Council absolutely have to agree once and for all what footprint the club have to work to.

The problem is as the Council own the land, the Club can’t leverage the land value. Cakebridge would make a prime spot for a Premier Inn or Ibis given racecourse proximity, but the Club is not the beneficiary of any land lease or sale so it doesn’t help finance a stand development.

And I do not think the Council could justify spending on a football stadium unless it also being used for ongoing council activity - hence my earlier suggestion of a new development consisting of a stand and CBC offices.

My priorities for a new stand are as follows.

Matchday:
  • Decent large sports bar on ground floor
    First floor coffee lounge with mixed light food options (book a table by app and order by app).
    Second floor pre-match dining (food only) and a season ticket holders only bar. ‘Basic’ hospitality boxes. All with windows looking out towards Cleeve and the pitch.
    Third floor full corporate stuff with dining packages boxes and seats in the stand
Non match day:
  • Sports bar open
    Conference and event space
    Coworking office space with exclusive access to the coffee lounge as part of the coworking space
    Small gym
Very expensive and unfeasible to be honest.
User avatar
Broadway Brian
Posts: 46
Joined: 31 Aug 2021, 14:43
Ben version 4:0 wrote:Broadway Robin, I think that is massively unfair. To say "people need to change" when our board have delivered our best ever team, on a sustainable basis, is really insulting to the people who have worked hard to get us to this point.

And jerry cannot fathom how those idiots in charge haven't sorted this out already! He simply cannot fathom it :lol:

Watch how easy this is! :

I think we should all invest £10k per fan next Saturday and use the money to build a new stand that has good viewing lines and corporate facilities, a gym, offices for cbc and superdry and Microsoft, and affordable housing for 1,400 people. If the board don't deliver it they MUST GO!! People must change and I can't fathom why they haven't done it already

Grow up people :lol:
Ben, I’ll respectfully disagree with you here.

I have personal experience of the slackness of some of the commercial aspects of the club.
A glass ceiling is one thing, but let’s at least get to the glass ceiling.

The point being made was that facilities alone are not the full answer. Commercially, we’re not at it in my opinion based on personal experience.
asl
Posts: 5642
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 09:37
What we need is a commercial manag.....oh...

Sent from my SM-G9860 using Tapatalk

Fuller
Posts: 1668
Joined: 27 Jun 2012, 09:23
It’s got bigger….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60125527

These clubs live in a world a million miles from little old Cheltenham Town ….
User avatar
longmover
Posts: 1822
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 18:55
Fuller wrote: 25 Jan 2022, 17:16 It’s got bigger….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60125527

These clubs live in a world a million miles from little old Cheltenham Town ….
Portsmouth Fc is an extension of Portsmouth itself, even if your not football mad most folk from Portsmouth are very proud of the football club. Sad really but if CTFC disappeared tomorrow about 1000 people would be distraught the majority of the towns populace wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
London Exile
Posts: 3128
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
The new Boston United stadium is costing in the region of £12m and 3 sides are terracing (albeit the terracing behind one of the goals will have a sports hall behind it)
I would guesstimate that any new main stand for us would easily be in the region of £4 - 5m and off the back of Covid, I don’t see anyone having that sort of money lying about.
As others said, unfortunately it’s just not viable for us and I don’t see that changing anytime in the next few years.
We’ll have to make do with the old girl for quite some time yet.
everyman
Posts: 1854
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 09:11
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 17:07 Tough one. It is trying to weight up which poses the biggest risk to our future viability and success: Having the current stand or taking on the debt needed to finance a new one.

The cheapest debt would be if the Borough Council took out a loan to build a new stand complex which also houses a new Council office so they can sell the current one. The combination of selling the current building and moving into a smaller office with massively better energy efficiency and cheaper running costs would make it viable for the Council with a quick payback and then be a financial benefit ongoing.

Nearly every Council in the country is wondering about downsizing due to permanent home working or hybrid working. And many Councils are doing this into new buildings so they can become zero carbon much more quickly. CBC could also use the new event/conference space for their Council purposes as well.

It’s the only solution which is risk free for both the Club and the Council.*

(*Barring one of us winning the Euromillions and funding a stand with no strings and desire to be on the Board etc).
Why don`t you contact the club maybe through the FED. to ask them if this has been considered.I needed to visit the council office in town and found it has been shut ever since covid making that location a proverbial white elephant and making your idea the perfect red robin solution.
Ben version 4:0
Posts: 100
Joined: 31 May 2021, 05:22
It's a good idea RCS. Given the fact that i regularly see four or five different Cheltenham Councillors at WR I guess it's worth suggesting it to them...
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 25937
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Ben version 4:0 wrote: 04 Feb 2022, 10:15 It's a good idea RCS. Given the fact that i regularly see four or five different Cheltenham Councillors at WR I guess it's worth suggesting it to them...
Happy to if someone intros me. I will try and contact a Trust Board Member as well.

We can work with CBC on business cases etc as well if needed. The will and ambition needs to be there from all parties, which I believe it would be.
Post Reply