European Super League

[longmover]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... s-on-merit

14 extra games a season, 14!!!

Bye Bye league and FA Cup.

[Shade]

It'll never happen. Not here, anyway. We saw what happened last time with fans rebelling and clubs quickly changing their attitudes and apologising - so surprising that absolutely nowhere in that article does it mention the fans...just clubs and governing bodies. If it ever happens, it will be a breakaway. The likes of Real, Barca, Celtic, PSG ditching their leagues that have only one or two teams that can win it, to play in some kind of Pro Evo Master League.

[longmover]

they are prepared to play the long game, once the first prem game gets played abroad they it will be all systems go.

Also if this does go ahead it would without the English clubs (English clubs not playing in Europe at the highest level) and I can't see players and owners too pleased about that.

it will happen.

[Red Duke]

It is driven by three clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus. They are trying to create a football Utopia.

In reality, they see it as the solution to their financial problems. They pretend to care about other football clubs, but it is just a smoke screen.

[longmover]

It is driven by three clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus. They are trying to create a football Utopia.

In reality, they see it as the solution to their financial problems. They pretend to care about other football clubs, but it is just a smoke screen.

Those clubs have pretty big sway in mainland Europe.

[Wellwisher]

It is driven by three clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus. They are trying to create a football Utopia.

In reality, they see it as the solution to their financial problems. They pretend to care about other football clubs, but it is just a smoke screen.

Those clubs have pretty big sway in mainland Europe.

RMadrid have, but Barca and Juve (esp) don't - at least not any longer. Remember, when they first proposed the ESL, the European Clubs Association kicked out Agnelli from Juve as their Chairman and installed PSGs main man instead. (PSG are dead set against the ESL). And the ECA represents 250-odd of the leading clubs throughout the continent.

Meanwhile, Barca are over €1 billion in debt; have increasingly had to sell off their family silver to maintain spending (i.e. short-term gain, long-term loss); have €0.5 billion to find to rebuild their stadium; and are fan-owned, meaning no billionaire is gpoing to be allowed to ride to the rescue by buying the club.

While Juve are also heavily in debt, not least because 2021/22 saw them lose (a Serie A record) €254m. And that's only what went through the books - the Italian tax authorities are after them for false accounting, leading to the entire Board, including Agnelli, being forced to step down.

Consequently, neither team is in any position to tell anyone else what to do, even in their own domestic leagues, who are both after them.

As for your earlier prediction that the ESL "will happen", I genuinely don't think it will, as follows.
1. The overwhelmingly adverse reaction outside Italy and Spain to the original plan was a heavy, and unexpected, kick in the balls for them.
2. The reaction of UEFA, the ECA and all the leading Leagues and Associations, plus not a few governments, in coalescing to oppose them was similarly surprising/damaging;
3. The preliminary opinion of the EUs Advocate General in declaring that UEFA were not acting contrary to EU Competition Law by opposing the ESL is very likely to be confirmed by the ECJ, thereby removing one of the ESL's main hopes.

Which is why they have now come back with ESL 2.0, which is potentially so different from the original as to be unrecognisable: Up to 80 members, a divisional set-up with Promotion and Relegation and no permanent members etc. That alone tells you that theyre back-pedalling.

And where are these 80 member clubs going to come from? Theres no way English clubs will touch it, after the uproar the last time. While no German club will touch it, since they are all fan-owned, and therefore opposed. While if PSG are against it, as they are, it will be difficult for French clubs to join-up.

Meanwhile, those clubs in Spain and Italy who were originally not considered will inevitably be suspicious, at least.

Meaning that even if something does get off the ground, the standard of member club will not compete with the Championss League, but would barely be of Europa League standard.

And what would be the point of eg Rangers/Celtic/Feyenoord/|Anderlecht/Olympiakos/Galatasaray/Ferencvaros etc leaving the present Europa League for a Pound Land version calling itself the ESL?

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

It is driven by three clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus. They are trying to create a football Utopia.

In reality, they see it as the solution to their financial problems. They pretend to care about other football clubs, but it is just a smoke screen.

Those clubs have pretty big sway in mainland Europe.

RMadrid have, but Barca and Juve (esp) don't - at least not any longer. Remember, when they first proposed the ESL, the European Clubs Association kicked out Agnelli from Juve as their Chairman and installed PSGs main man instead. (PSG are dead set against the ESL). And the ECA represents 250-odd of the leading clubs throughout the continent.

Meanwhile, Barca are over €1 billion in debt; have increasingly had to sell off their family silver to maintain spending (i.e. short-term gain, long-term loss); have €0.5 billion to find to rebuild their stadium; and are fan-owned, meaning no billionaire is gpoing to be allowed to ride to the rescue by buying the club.

While Juve are also heavily in debt, not least because 2021/22 saw them lose (a Serie A record) €254m. And that's only what went through the books - the Italian tax authorities are after them for false accounting, leading to the entire Board, including Agnelli, being forced to step down.

Consequently, neither team is in any position to tell anyone else what to do, even in their own domestic leagues, who are both after them.

As for your earlier prediction that the ESL "will happen", I genuinely don't think it will, as follows.
1. The overwhelmingly adverse reaction outside Italy and Spain to the original plan was a heavy, and unexpected, kick in the balls for them.
2. The reaction of UEFA, the ECA and all the leading Leagues and Associations, plus not a few governments, in coalescing to oppose them was similarly surprising/damaging;
3. The preliminary opinion of the EUs Advocate General in declaring that UEFA were not acting contrary to EU Competition Law by opposing the ESL is very likely to be confirmed by the ECJ, thereby removing one of the ESL's main hopes.

Which is why they have now come back with ESL 2.0, which is potentially so different from the original as to be unrecognisable: Up to 80 members, a divisional set-up with Promotion and Relegation and no permanent members etc. That alone tells you that theyre back-pedalling.

And where are these 80 member clubs going to come from? Theres no way English clubs will touch it, after the uproar the last time. While no German club will touch it, since they are all fan-owned, and therefore opposed. While if PSG are against it, as they are, it will be difficult for French clubs to join-up.

Meanwhile, those clubs in Spain and Italy who were originally not considered will inevitably be suspicious, at least.

Meaning that even if something does get off the ground, the standard of member club will not compete with the Championss League, but would barely be of Europa League standard.

And what would be the point of eg Rangers/Celtic/Feyenoord/|Anderlecht/Olympiakos/Galatasaray/Ferencvaros etc leaving the present Europa League for a Pound Land version calling itself the ESL?

That purely comes down to money. If the TV deal was massive then Celtic and Rangers would benefit from that rather than the pittance earned from SPL.

They’d be playing against big historic and famous European clubs rather than sides who get 3,000 for home games; so the audience in Asia and the Americas will be much bigger.

Caveat is of course Champions League. Any new ESL would have to guarantee more money than the Champions League. Although the ESL money would be guaranteed, whereas Celtic and Rangers do face the risk of being knocked out the Champions League in the qualifiers.

The whole thing is because the big clubs in Spain and Italy can’t compete with the Premier League’s revenue so they want to do something to get more money. That’s why PSG can happily be against it; the money is irrelevant to them as their owners have nearly unlimited funds.

[Wellwisher]

That purely comes down to money. If the TV deal was massive then Celtic and Rangers would benefit from that rather than the pittance earned from SPL.

They’d be playing against big historic and famous European clubs rather than sides who get 3,000 for home games; so the audience in Asia and the Americas will be much bigger.

Caveat is of course Champions League. Any new ESL would have to guarantee more money than the Champions League. Although the ESL money would be guaranteed, whereas Celtic and Rangers do face the risk of being knocked out the Champions League in the qualifiers.

The whole thing is because the big clubs in Spain and Italy can’t compete with the Premier League’s revenue so they want to do something to get more money. That’s why PSG can happily be against it; the money is irrelevant to them as their owners have nearly unlimited funds.

Of course it's all down to money.

But my point is, who is going to pay 1st rate money to broadcast/livestream/sponsor a 2nd rate product, when UEFA are offering a 1st rate one?

I mean, Rangers versus Feyenoord? Or Man Utd vs Ajax?

Sparta Prague vs Brondby? Or PSV vs Borussia Dortmund?

Fact is, this new competition simply will not have the big clubs from England, Germany or France and maybe not even from Spain or Italy, seeing as their respective FA's, plus Serie A and La Liga are dead set against it:
"LaLiga has responded to the latest offensive from Real Madrid and Barcelona regarding their plans for a breakaway European Super League by branding them the big bad wolf trying to devour football."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... teams.html

"AC Milan and Juventus will be thrown out of Serie A if they continue to hold onto their European Super League dream, according to the chief of the Italian football federation (FIGC)."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... t-23988237

And you can be quite sure that UEFA will redistribute enough money amomgst the middle-ranking clubs to keep them onside (Europa League), while holding out the prospect of really big money for those of them who qualify for the CL.

While everyone is forgetting the other side of the equation. For as well as playing 14 midweek games per season in the ESL, the participating clubs also require to continue with their "day job" playing 30-40 games in their own domestic league - cake-and-eat-it, if you like.

How would eg Juve and AC Milan react if the rest of Serie A voted to kick them out? For let''s face it, Napoli, Lazio, Roma and Inter etc wouldn't miss them - less competition to be Champions of Italy and qualify for UEFAs Champions League.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

That purely comes down to money. If the TV deal was massive then Celtic and Rangers would benefit from that rather than the pittance earned from SPL.

They’d be playing against big historic and famous European clubs rather than sides who get 3,000 for home games; so the audience in Asia and the Americas will be much bigger.

Caveat is of course Champions League. Any new ESL would have to guarantee more money than the Champions League. Although the ESL money would be guaranteed, whereas Celtic and Rangers do face the risk of being knocked out the Champions League in the qualifiers.

The whole thing is because the big clubs in Spain and Italy can’t compete with the Premier League’s revenue so they want to do something to get more money. That’s why PSG can happily be against it; the money is irrelevant to them as their owners have nearly unlimited funds.

Of course it's all down to money.

But my point is, who is going to pay 1st rate money to broadcast/livestream/sponsor a 2nd rate product, when UEFA are offering a 1st rate one?

I mean, Rangers versus Feyenoord? Or Man Utd vs Ajax?

Sparta Prague vs Brondby? Or PSV vs Borussia Dortmund?

Fact is, this new competition simply will not have the big clubs from England, Germany or France and maybe not even from Spain or Italy, seeing as their respective FA's, plus Serie A and La Liga are dead set against it:
"LaLiga has responded to the latest offensive from Real Madrid and Barcelona regarding their plans for a breakaway European Super League by branding them the big bad wolf trying to devour football."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... teams.html

"AC Milan and Juventus will be thrown out of Serie A if they continue to hold onto their European Super League dream, according to the chief of the Italian football federation (FIGC)."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... t-23988237

And you can be quite sure that UEFA will redistribute enough money amomgst the middle-ranking clubs to keep them onside (Europa League), while holding out the prospect of really big money for those of them who qualify for the CL.

While everyone is forgetting the other side of the equation. For as well as playing 14 midweek games per season in the ESL, the participating clubs also require to continue with their "day job" playing 30-40 games in their own domestic league - cake-and-eat-it, if you like.

How would eg Juve and AC Milan react if the rest of Serie A voted to kick them out? For let''s face it, Napoli, Lazio, Roma and Inter etc wouldn't miss them - less competition to be Champions of Italy and qualify for UEFAs Champions League.

Spot on.

[longmover]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67783970

off we go again, this will happen. Saudi money will make sure of that.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67783970

off we go again, this will happen. Saudi money will make sure of that.

Just a question of whether you embrace Saudi cash straight away, like Tennis did, or try and resists before realising it is futile, like Golf.

[Jerry St Clair]

Can't see English clubs joining in the foreseeable. The outcry last time really spooked them. Longer term, who knows.

But the Premier League is rotten to the core anyway, so what difference does another unfathomably rich competition make. I'll keep watching a little club in Gloucestershire battling away in a proper competition, and I suspect very, very many others will too.

[longmover]

Can't see English clubs joining in the foreseeable. The outcry last time really spooked them. Longer term, who knows.

But the Premier League is rotten to the core anyway, so what difference does another unfathomably rich competition make. I'll keep watching a little club in Gloucestershire battling away in a proper competition, and I suspect very, very many others will too.

You think the owners of these clubs care about the 'outcry' from fans, the outcry will get quieter and quieter, it'll start with prem fixtures abroad then when that happens......

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I’d actually be up for seeing a European League established without English clubs, to try and create a rival league to the Premier League.

As well as Real, Barca, Juve, PSG, Bayern etc I would also like to see the teams with big potential who suffer from being in a low-value and non-competitive league.

I’m thinking the likes of Copenhagen, Celtic, Rangers, Ajax, PSV, Basel, Anderlecht, etc. If these types of teams got the same TV funding as Real, Barca, etc it would help them catch-up and give them a chance of fulfilling the potential they clearly have. Especially those like Celtic, Rangers and Ajax who used to in the elite before being left behind by 30 years of Premier League, Serie A and La Liga TV deal money.

Then the top four Premier League teams can play the top four Euro League teams in a mini competition with one winner.

[Shade]

I’d actually be up for seeing a European League established without English clubs, to try and create a rival league to the Premier League.

As well as Real, Barca, Juve, PSG, Bayern etc I would also like to see the teams with big potential who suffer from being in a low-value and non-competitive league.

I’m thinking the likes of Copenhagen, Celtic, Rangers, Ajax, PSV, Basel, Anderlecht, etc. If these types of teams got the same TV funding as Real, Barca, etc it would help them catch-up and give them a chance of fulfilling the potential they clearly have. Especially those like Celtic, Rangers and Ajax who used to in the elite before being left behind by 30 years of Premier League, Serie A and La Liga TV deal money.

Then the top four Premier League teams can play the top four Euro League teams in a mini competition with one winner.

Your second list of clubs, yes, 100%. Throw in a few others who regularly dominate their own domestic leagues European spots but rarely get far in the UCL or UEL, such as Shakhtar, Dinamo Kyiv, Young Boys, Royal Antwerp, Red Star, Olympiacos, AEK, Panathinaikos, PSV, Feyenoord, Sturm Graz and Qarabag, and that would be a decent thing for competition, imo. Nice little 18 team league there, and I'm sure there are a couple I've forgotten that could round it up to 20.
But I wouldn't have Real, Barca, Juve, PSG or Bayern in it. They would still just dominate it with those other clubs fighting for 6th.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I’d actually be up for seeing a European League established without English clubs, to try and create a rival league to the Premier League.

As well as Real, Barca, Juve, PSG, Bayern etc I would also like to see the teams with big potential who suffer from being in a low-value and non-competitive league.

I’m thinking the likes of Copenhagen, Celtic, Rangers, Ajax, PSV, Basel, Anderlecht, etc. If these types of teams got the same TV funding as Real, Barca, etc it would help them catch-up and give them a chance of fulfilling the potential they clearly have. Especially those like Celtic, Rangers and Ajax who used to in the elite before being left behind by 30 years of Premier League, Serie A and La Liga TV deal money.

Then the top four Premier League teams can play the top four Euro League teams in a mini competition with one winner.

Your second list of clubs, yes, 100%. Throw in a few others who regularly dominate their own domestic leagues European spots but rarely get far in the UCL or UEL, such as Shakhtar, Dinamo Kyiv, Young Boys, Royal Antwerp, Red Star, Olympiacos, AEK, Panathinaikos, PSV, Feyenoord, Sturm Graz and Qarabag, and that would be a decent thing for competition, imo. Nice little 18 team league there, and I'm sure there are a couple I've forgotten that could round it up to 20.
But I wouldn't have Real, Barca, Juve, PSG or Bayern in it. They would still just dominate it with those other clubs fighting for 6th.

You’re probably right. Good idea.

[Jerry St Clair]

You think the owners of these clubs care about the 'outcry' from fans, the outcry will get quieter and quieter, it'll start with prem fixtures abroad then when that happens......

Well, it evidently did as all the English clubs rapidly reverse-ferreted as soon as the demos outside their grounds started. Nothing else had changed so the only explanation for the u-turn was the fan reaction.

You're possibly right about them playing the long game though and, no doubt, they've all been working on 'strategy' ever since.

The Premier League already excludes huge numbers of fans and the lower leagues are befitting.. A work colleague of mine was a regular at Anfield for two decades, but simply hasn't been able to get a ticket since the pandemic. He now watches Marine FC. I firmly believe that the elite becoming eliter, will benefit clubs down the pyramid.