Investment update

[Jerry St Clair]

Mark Halliwell made a really good point about the new health centre that’s been built on Prestbury Road being a missed opportunity.

Several clubs have community health facilities in their stands available for the NHS and private use. Health checks, rehabilitation facilities which get used all day everyday. Some thing fairly prosaic, but essential, would be a great steady, reliable income stream.

[Si Robin]

I sort of agree with Iheareye here in that I don’t think Whaddon Road will ever generate huge off field revenues, I think the best we can do is maximise on match days with some other occasional events added in such as the concerts we’ve held.

If investment was to come which meant the club in the future could obtain and connect the Parklands & Cakebridge Place sites then Parklands could house a dedicated fan zone (I’m thinking something similar the ‘the locker’ at Walsall) where the general matchday goers congregate and the main stand could in turn become home solely to the corporate side. Personally I don’t think we’ll ever see a new main stand only an extensive refurbishment to the current one

All this would most likely be funded through the sale of parcels of land for dwellings (plus a small area at the seasons entrance)

Buying using Parklands should be one of the first priorities for the club. It would make a great area for a fan zone and can be used to generate income midweek. We can then also build a modest 2500 seater stand behind the goal and using some of the land which is needed. That would kill two birds with one stone, and it could enable us to have bigger concerts at the ground end of season too.

I think Parkands is a listed Community Asset and may not be easy to buy. Wymans Brook makes any building difficult or not safe with the flooding risk.

Is that the case? The council are still trying to force them out of the property last I heard.

[Jerry St Clair]

Yes, Parklands is definitely a registered Asset of Community Value since 2021.

The problem is that registrations only last 5 years and need to be renewed by….er……the council.

I’m guessing that it is therefore protected until 2026, but after that the council would be pretty clear to sell it.

[Robin]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

[ctfc-fan]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

The council can’t get enough land for their own requirements (leisure/allotments) currently so not sure why they’d sell it off.

[Artemis]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

The council can’t get enough land for their own requirements (leisure/allotments) currently so not sure why they’d sell it off.

They're also short of income / capital, which is one reason they might sell it.

[Artemis]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

Increase the attendance, then increase the spend per capita, through better and more varied food and drink, pre and post match entertainment and a much improved club ship (with more than one card reader). The incremental match day revenue adds up and quickly.
It still puzzles me why the car park and PRE bars don't open post match

[ctfc-fan]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

The council can’t get enough land for their own requirements (leisure/allotments) currently so not sure why they’d sell it off.

They're also short of income / capital, which is one reason they might sell it.

But they have a duty to provide land and they can’t get it due to land banking so would not make sense to sell it. Places like the Municipal offices are an exception as that’s a building that can’t just be knocked down.

[Robin]

Is there anything stopping us buying the land and using it as a community asset, put some small artificial playing pitches in there for renting in midweek and then let kids come early and kick about next to a fan zone on a match day. We could do the same with Parklands use it as a bar and rent it out for social events and fitness groups.

I think it could generate money for us, not enough to make us rich but definitely help out and it can help address one of the biggest complaints which is poor match day facilities. You could put up some inflatable toys and have some big screens to watch games either side of our Saturday games. Even do BBQ food in warmer weather. It would also give the club a bit more parking which brings in a few hundred quid on a match day.

Increase the attendance, then increase the spend per capita, through better and more varied food and drink, pre and post match entertainment and a much improved club ship (with more than one card reader). The incremental match day revenue adds up and quickly.
It still puzzles me why the car park and PRE bars don't open post match

I don't disagree and maybe we can make some smallish attendance gains with marketing and a few little match day tweaks but my impression is very much that to make a noticeable gain i.e. an extra 500 on the gates over a season we need a new stand with seats and that match day experience like other clubs have invested in. That's why Parklands seems a great opportunity for a our future owners, There is land there we can use for entertainment which we do not have right now unless we use Cakebridge.

Doing the home end is also likely a lot cheaper than the main stand. Maybe could do that area for £5-6million compared to £15 million for a new main stand and purchasing Cakebridge. Obviously the return on the latter is also significantly more.

[Artemis]

The council can’t get enough land for their own requirements (leisure/allotments) currently so not sure why they’d sell it off.

They're also short of income / capital, which is one reason they might sell it.

But they have a duty to provide land and they can’t get it due to land banking so would not make sense to sell it. Places like the Municipal offices are an exception as that’s a building that can’t just be knocked down.

CBC or it's successor will have to dispose of that land. Question then is to whom do they sell it and for what purpose? Solely housing or a mixed use community asset / sports / housing. I'd hope that new owners of CTFC are sufficiently commercially astute and imaginative to propose the latter.

[Ihearye]

Would be interesting to know what % of those that attend, would actually use a fanzine type of facility before and after a match. As opposed to those that turn upon time for the match starting and leave as soon as it is over. Purely because they have no interest on having a drink or something to eat before or after a match.
Is there actually an appetite for it? Or is it just in the heads of those that do like a pint before and after?

[Robin]

Would be interesting to know what % of those that attend, would actually use a fanzine type of facility before and after a match. As opposed to those that turn upon time for the match starting and leave as soon as it is over. Purely because they have no interest on having a drink or something to eat before or after a match.
Is there actually an appetite for it? Or is it just in the heads of those that do like a pint before and after?

It's now common place if you go to away games even Bromley had something like this and it was packed. The rest of the ground though would not look out of place in Glos City's league. But for them it generates good revenue.

Walsall, Carlisle and Notts County also have really popular fan spaces, I believe they also show England games to generate more revenue and have bands playing some nights too. It's a space we lag far behind in and it's not just about those who want a drink, you can use it for families too a few inflatables, some kids games, whilst adults sit around, it can be really popular.

[Artemis]

Would be interesting to know what % of those that attend, would actually use a fanzine type of facility before and after a match. As opposed to those that turn upon time for the match starting and leave as soon as it is over. Purely because they have no interest on having a drink or something to eat before or after a match.
Is there actually an appetite for it? Or is it just in the heads of those that do like a pint before and after?

It's not those that don't eat and drink before the game that are the primary target. It's those that eat and drink elsewhere that the club should be looking to attract to come earlier and or leave later.
Spurs have done this very successfully, through a varied and competitively priced offering (Inc their own brewery). But it has to be done well.

[Robin]

Exactly it's giving people a different option rather than going into town for food or drink, you can also use it on non-match days for other football games, use it for bands to play etc.

[Jerry St Clair]

My benchmark here is the Exeter City fanzone. That is terrific.

Multiple food and drink kiosks, kids activities, craft cider and beer, a dozen big screens showing the lunchtime premier league match. Really high quality, designed by fans for fans. I don’t know how many were in there, but it was rammed. Maybe 1000 (including lots of Town fans as well) and eating and drinking. And all for a 6000ish attendance so not a million miles away from us.

Do it well and the money will flow in.

[ctfc-fan]

They're also short of income / capital, which is one reason they might sell it.

But they have a duty to provide land and they can’t get it due to land banking so would not make sense to sell it. Places like the Municipal offices are an exception as that’s a building that can’t just be knocked down.

CBC or it's successor will have to dispose of that land. Question then is to whom do they sell it and for what purpose? Solely housing or a mixed use community asset / sports / housing. I'd hope that new owners of CTFC are sufficiently commercially astute and imaginative to propose the latter.

But again, they have a duty to provide more leisure land and can’t get it in the outskirts due to land banking so they’ll might well have to make use of what they have.

[Wellwisher]

Would be interesting to know what % of those that attend, would actually use a fanzine type of facility before and after a match. As opposed to those that turn upon time for the match starting and leave as soon as it is over. Purely because they have no interest on having a drink or something to eat before or after a match.
Is there actually an appetite for it? Or is it just in the heads of those that do like a pint before and after?

"... what % of those that presently attend would use a fanzine type of facility etc"

If they're anything like me, they probably wouldn't use a fanzone. But such a facility may well attract a new type of fan, who want more than just to turn up, moan/cheer as appropriate, then go home?

[Robin]

But they have a duty to provide land and they can’t get it due to land banking so would not make sense to sell it. Places like the Municipal offices are an exception as that’s a building that can’t just be knocked down.

CBC or it's successor will have to dispose of that land. Question then is to whom do they sell it and for what purpose? Solely housing or a mixed use community asset / sports / housing. I'd hope that new owners of CTFC are sufficiently commercially astute and imaginative to propose the latter.

But again, they have a duty to provide more leisure land and can’t get it in the outskirts due to land banking so they’ll might well have to make use of what they have.

But is the land not falling into leisure land if it's sold to the club and we use it as a fan zone and maybe put in a small astro turf pitch to be used in the week alongside Parklands bar?

If the council don't sell at least one or Parklands or Cakebridge the club would have to move to survive. Ideally we get both as I can't see how we can build without them or at least chunks of the land.

[Robin]

My benchmark here is the Exeter City fanzone. That is terrific.

Multiple food and drink kiosks, kids activities, craft cider and beer, a dozen big screens showing the lunchtime premier league match. Really high quality, designed by fans for fans. I don’t know how many were in there, but it was rammed. Maybe 1000 (including lots of Town fans as well) and eating and drinking. And all for a 6000ish attendance so not a million miles away from us.

Do it well and the money will flow in.

^^^^ Another great example of a club bringing in new revenue streams. With the risk of upsetting Horlick, I do wonder if some fans realise how far we are slipping behind other comparable clubs.

[Warwickshire Robin]

My benchmark here is the Exeter City fanzone. That is terrific.

Multiple food and drink kiosks, kids activities, craft cider and beer, a dozen big screens showing the lunchtime premier league match. Really high quality, designed by fans for fans. I don’t know how many were in there, but it was rammed. Maybe 1000 (including lots of Town fans as well) and eating and drinking. And all for a 6000ish attendance so not a million miles away from us.

Do it well and the money will flow in.

I was thinking exactly this. They also have a stage set up which holds events through the week and a skittle alley that gets covered over for bigger events and matchdays, which is another source of non matchday income when hired out.

[Artemis]

I don't see the return for anyone investing in CTFC unless they are part of at least a joint venture with CBC and / or other partners in developing the Cakebridge Place / Parklands areas, and including WR in the overall plan. It just doesn't make commercial sense.

Similarly, I don't think CBC can afford to develop that area without external parties investing.

[andgarod]

see what CBC is doing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4k5kv0v2go

[Ihearye]

Would be interesting to know what % of those that attend, would actually use a fanzine type of facility before and after a match. As opposed to those that turn upon time for the match starting and leave as soon as it is over. Purely because they have no interest on having a drink or something to eat before or after a match.
Is there actually an appetite for it? Or is it just in the heads of those that do like a pint before and after?

"... what % of those that presently attend would use a fanzine type of facility etc"

If they're anything like me, they probably wouldn't use a fanzone. But such a facility may well attract a new type of fan, who want more than just to turn up, moan/cheer as appropriate, then go home?

Fair point. I would most probably fall into the latter, hence my scepticism. I first step would be to build a team that sends us all home with a spring in our step. Then look to add on these possible money makers. I am not sure how live music etc would work in a built up area, but if it works elsewhere why not here.

[longmover]

"Build it and they will come"

after matchday Keep that money at the club for as long as possible, the racecourse cottoned onto the fact that as soon as the racing was over all that money was spent in town so they created an 'after party' to curb that flow of money outside of their tills. Nobody stays at WR after the game because its a dump with c!#p facilities. Make WR an attractive 'better' option than going into town.

[Robin]

I don't see the return for anyone investing in CTFC unless they are part of at least a joint venture with CBC and / or other partners in developing the Cakebridge Place / Parklands areas, and including WR in the overall plan. It just doesn't make commercial sense.

Similarly, I don't think CBC can afford to develop that area without external parties investing.

But if the council sell Parklands to us under the proviso of using it as a community asset (which is what the football club is ultimately) why do we need their partnership other than planning permission for a new stand behind the goal and maybe some astro turf pitches on the land? Parklands is a fairly small plot of land that there isn't much the council could do with apart from perhaps build a handful of low cost houses on whilst removing the parklands pub so I cannot imagine this will be something they are precious about.

Cakebridge place is probably double the size of Parklands in land and could definitely be used for housing but that would put the kibosh on a future new main stand realistically and force the club to move if it wants to progress. I still feel the best option here would be for us to purchase it and put a couple of retail outlets on it and use it for extra parking on match day if we could convince the council to sell. Then we know our longer term future at Whaddon Road is secured.

[Robin]

"Build it and they will come"

after matchday Keep that money at the club for as long as possible, the racecourse cottoned onto the fact that as soon as the racing was over all that money was spent in town so they created an 'after party' to curb that flow of money outside of their tills. Nobody stays at WR after the game because its a dump with c!#p facilities. Make WR an attractive 'better' option than going into town.

We need this and better facilities inside the ground so either we redo the home end or build a new 4000 seater main stand. The C&G may be home but it's very poor facilities and we know clearly that floating fans want to sit down as sales drop off dramatically once all seats are gone.

[Artemis]

I don't see the return for anyone investing in CTFC unless they are part of at least a joint venture with CBC and / or other partners in developing the Cakebridge Place / Parklands areas, and including WR in the overall plan. It just doesn't make commercial sense.

Similarly, I don't think CBC can afford to develop that area without external parties investing.

But if the council sell Parklands to us under the proviso of using it as a community asset (which is what the football club is ultimately) why do we need their partnership other than planning permission for a new stand behind the goal and maybe some astro turf pitches on the land? Parklands is a fairly small plot of land that there isn't much the council could do with apart from perhaps build a handful of low cost houses on whilst removing the parklands pub so I cannot imagine this will be something they are precious about.

Cakebridge place is probably double the size of Parklands in land and could definitely be used for housing but that would put the kibosh on a future new main stand realistically and force the club to move if it wants to progress. I still feel the best option here would be for us to purchase it and put a couple of retail outlets on it and use it for extra parking on match day if we could convince the council to sell. Then we know our longer term future at Whaddon Road is secured.

I said "at least" for a reason. An outright sale may be what any new owners want, but the council may wish to control use through levers other than planning. Its also possible that the land would be divvied up between a number of lots with a number of parties involved. Who knows, but I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some interaction between CBC and prospective new owners.

[Artemis]

see what CBC is doing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4k5kv0v2go

This is the current situation. https://www.cheltenhamsaracensfc.co.uk/ ... club-house

I think its fair to say that any development of Cakebridge / Parklands / WR site would be on a larger scale, and almost certainly have to include some provision for housing (of which the town is desperately short), and possibly community facilities given it would take away the current Community centre.

[Artemis]

One other point - given that the Cakebridge site has been vacant for some time now, I think the club board have done well to open dialogue with CBC about its future, including the short-term lease to generate some revenue for the council. This may well have stalled any immediate intent the council may have had to build on it.

[Robin]

see what CBC is doing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4k5kv0v2go

This is the current situation. https://www.cheltenhamsaracensfc.co.uk/ ... club-house

I think its fair to say that any development of Cakebridge / Parklands / WR site would be on a larger scale, and almost certainly have to include some provision for housing (of which the town is desperately short), and possibly community facilities given it would take away the current Community centre.

But how can we realistically expand the stadium capacity (WR is currently one of the smallest grounds in the football league), build revenue generators and build housing all on what is such a small plot of land. I just cannot see how that's possible and will ultimately push the club away to a new ground if the council build houses.

I'm not challenging what you are saying here only worried about the conflicting priorities. I think we all agree a new main stand is needed and realistically that must mean increased capacity. Even a 4000 seater stand would see overall capacity at a modest 9000. That would need more car parking space and more space for fan zones, more traffic etc.

[horlickfanclub]

As I understand it much or all of Cakebridge Place cannot be built on due to the proximity of Wymans Brook and drainage issues. Ditto Parklands site. If houses/ shops could be built on Cakebridge the Council would have done it by now.

[horlickfanclub]

Mark Halliwell made a really good point about the new health centre that’s been built on Prestbury Road being a missed opportunity.

Several clubs have community health facilities in their stands available for the NHS and private use. Health checks, rehabilitation facilities which get used all day everyday. Some thing fairly prosaic, but essential, would be a great steady, reliable income stream.

Not really a missed opportunity as the ownership of the land made Prestbury Road a better option for the surgery.

[Artemis]

see what CBC is doing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4k5kv0v2go

This is the current situation. https://www.cheltenhamsaracensfc.co.uk/ ... club-house

I think its fair to say that any development of Cakebridge / Parklands / WR site would be on a larger scale, and almost certainly have to include some provision for housing (of which the town is desperately short), and possibly community facilities given it would take away the current Community centre.

But how can we realistically expand the stadium capacity (WR is currently one of the smallest grounds in the football league), build revenue generators and build housing all on what is such a small plot of land. I just cannot see how that's possible and will ultimately push the club away to a new ground if the council build houses.

I'm not challenging what you are saying here only worried about the conflicting priorities. I think we all agree a new main stand is needed and realistically that must mean increased capacity. Even a 4000 seater stand would see overall capacity at a modest 9000. That would need more car parking space and more space for fan zones, more traffic etc.

Including Parklands, its actually quite a large site, and ripe for a development plan that includes Cakebridge and the football ground. Mixed use commercial, leisure, housing (flats, apartments more than houses) and a route to develop the ground is all possible on it. So new owners of the club may well want to work with the council to develop and implement that plan. Why would the likes of Joy Seppala be interested in our club? It sure isn't to pump money blindly in to subsidise our entertainment. The club is largely debt free, and likely to be largely free to acquire, there's scope for growth in attendances and there's land around it. Its obvious to me that there's money to be made by acquiring the land and club. Our current owners don't have the desire to invest the time and money into doing that - that's fair enough, so they've done the right thing by going external to find someone who will. As I said, don't underestimate the value of the effort that I believe the current board have put in to develop the relationship with CBC so that this becomes even a possibility.

As for Wymans Brook - the river Chelt runs culverted through the town centre, so I don't think doing similar to the Brook would be a barrier to development if the pie is big enough to warrant it, and those three sites together probably make a big enough pie.
And it might be that new owners decide that to realise the potential of their investment, the club does move to a new ground. We don't know. Its hugely ambitious, but isn't that what we've been asking for?

[Ihearye]

"Build it and they will come"

after matchday Keep that money at the club for as long as possible, the racecourse cottoned onto the fact that as soon as the racing was over all that money was spent in town so they created an 'after party' to curb that flow of money outside of their tills. Nobody stays at WR after the game because its a dump with c!#p facilities. Make WR an attractive 'better' option than going into town.

One small pedantic point, build it and he will come

[Robin]

As I understand it much or all of Cakebridge Place cannot be built on due to the proximity of Wymans Brook and drainage issues. Ditto Parklands site. If houses/ shops could be built on Cakebridge the Council would have done it by now.

My understanding was not that we could not build on it only that costs were increased as we would need to go deeper into the undersoil due to the brook. That was always the response why we never had a cantilever roof on the PRE.

Also Cakebridge place had houses before albeit cheaper flat pack style houses and only a small amount so it can definitely be built upon.